talkmagic.co.uk

PM, possibly the Tesco of the magic world

I just checked my 'in a flash' packaging and cards and they're the same as described. Also, for some readon mine are in a French printed Bicycle box that has a different pack design. Similar but not the same. Anyone else have the same?

It's amazing that it's only when he is out of pocket does he complain.
For a long time, he was in bed with Penguin and what did we hear from Sankey?
The silence was deafening.
Now, when he finds he is out of pocket because of them, he expects everyone else to join him in a boycott.

Boycott Penguin if you wish; but don't do it because one of its suppliers isn't making money off you and asks you to do it!

Mmmm - what a dilemma

There's always two sides to a story and often both sides think that they're right. I suspect that many will infact boycott Penguin until they see something that they want on their site

Peter Marucci wrote:It's amazing that it's only when he is out of pocket does he complain. or a long time, he was in bed with Penguin and what did we hear from Sankey? he silence was deafening. Now, when he finds he is out of pocket because of them, he expects everyone else to join him in a boycott. Boycott Penguin if you wish; but don't do it because one of its suppliers isn't making money off you and asks you to do it!

Well, he wouldn't have reason to complain if they were acting fairly...

Kati

Well, he wouldn't have reason to complain if they were acting fairly...

I think one point being made is that he did know they weren't acting fairly, and he had known for a while. he even started his email with...

Sankey wrote:To all of you who, over the past two years, have warned me about doing
business with Penguin Magic...

...YOU WERE RIGHT!!

It would seem that he chose to ignore what many people were saying until it started affecting him personally. It seems a little cheeky of him now to be the one asking for the boycott.

I am not denying that there is an ethical dilema, and the bottom line is that we all will have to make our own minds up about it, however I think Peter is right in that we shouldn't do it JUST because someone as big as Sankey says so. For a long time Sankey was actually making the situation worse by endorsing PM...

(By PM I mean Penguin Magic of course - not Peter Marucci - although I am sure that Sankey has always endorsed Mr. Marucci...)

Peter Marucci wrote:It's amazing that it's only when he is out of pocket does he complain.
For a long time, he was in bed with Penguin and what did we hear from Sankey?
The silence was deafening.
Now, when he finds he is out of pocket because of them, he expects everyone else to join him in a boycott.

That's a very interesting point, and it got me thinking and I think it led me somewhere either interesting or absurd. See what you think.

Online businesses tend to buy stock on a sale or return basis, with the manufacturer taking a cut of the revenue. It keeps costs down. The retail price comes about because the manufacturer knows from experience roughly how many units they'll shift and so can work out how much to charge to cover costs and to retain a sustainable operating profit. Clearly, setting this too high means few sales, so the price is kept as low as possible. However, the manufacturer has to persuade the suppliers to carry his products, and projected revenue is a prime tool in doing that, so it mustn't be too low either. Everyone along the supply chain uses the price to plan ahead. They literally take it to the bank. Price drops come from the manufacturer, to stimulate sluggish sales or to clear supply chains prior to discontinuing one product or launching another. Because they come from the manufacturer, they go across all retail outlets, so it's fair to everyone. There's some wiggle room in the price at each stage of the chain based on operating efficiency, but a major retailer suddenly and independently dropping the retail price by 25% on seemingly popular products is very odd, with the reasons given being the oddest part. In a crowded marketplace, Sankey's stuff is popular, meaning it sells, so the retail price would seem about right.

Penguin says it's the most efficient online retailer, presumably meant to mean they have a higher profit margin. To give something back to the punters, it's the normal, eficient business practice to bulk source consumables to get a good price, then give them away with every order over a certain value. Some stores have a rewards point or gift voucher scheme to generate future discounts, but the reason is the same: customer loyalty. Repeat sales. You can take it to the bank.

I think Penguin know they've made a naive mistake in trying to drop the price independently, regardless of the real reasons for doing so. Perhaps their nonsensical response is purely the result of red faces and feeling they should say something without perhaps first wondering what it should be.

So, what do you think? Interesting or absurd?

I believe Penguin Magic when they say they want to provide the best price possible for their customers. Although entering into an agreement with otehr dealers and then screwing them over in order to create a monopoly on all Sanky Magic products is not really on. If they entered into an agreement not to compete on price then they shouldn't. But why is it such an issue when a retailer doesn't keep to the recommended retail price? If Jay wants to make sure that everything is sold for a specific price then he should be his own dealer. It doesn't bother me that much as a customer (I've never bought any of Jays magic by the way), what bothers me is that I may be getting 'out of date' or ripped off products. That is just not on.

Tomo writes: "I think Penguin know they've made a naive mistake in trying to drop the price independently. . ."

Maybe yes; maybe no. I just think it's odd that only ONE supplier has complained.

If, as he claims, they are screwing everyone, wouldn't everyone complain?

Peter Marucci wrote:Tomo writes: "I think Penguin know they've made a naive mistake in trying to drop the price independently. . ."

Maybe yes; maybe no. I just think it's odd that only ONE supplier has complained.

If, as he claims, they are screwing everyone, wouldn't everyone complain?

That's a very good point, and here's the thing of it. People rarely complain about strangers to strangers, especially where agreements over money are concerned. They infer meaning so as not to seem petty. They tend to feel quietly afronted and left out if someone they know has an RRP agreement just like theirs and suddenly starts heavily discounting. People don't simply discount off their own backs like that, so perhaps the thinking would conclude that Sankey authorised it. A lot of cons work by this principle.

Most would probably bring it up jokingly in conversation next time they talked to the supplier, but few would call immediately and demand to know what the hell's going on over one product out of thousands.

Eventually, Sankey gets reimbursed for X units but sale or return, but only receives $Y. He calls Penguin, who explain that they'll sell Sankey products for what the hell they like thank you very much, and sod the carefully worked out RRP, because they can afford to do it whether he can or not. You see, we don't know Sankey's profit margin. It might be tight, so ripples of discontent could have a serious impact on his ability to keep trading. just a thought, but you never know.

So, yes, Sankey's out of pocket, and the other dealers wonder where it leaves their relationship with his company, all because Penguin decided to make an overblown gesture to their customers. It's just one explanation, but it fits.

I've never liked penguins anyway....

when PM discounts its JS products, does JS get payed less too?

Ooooh, big discussion!!

I heard about this from my fellow magician and didnt quite believe him!

But this sounds as if it has came from a reliable source and not been played with.

If not to buy from Penguin, what online magic shop can us UKers buy from.
I havent used many more. I use 2 websites to buy my magic. Of which one was penguin. Can anyone tell me a DECENT online magic seller that sells lots of different quality magic and at decent prices. [/b]

emagictricks
alakazam
magictricks
cards4magic
magicbox
Aquarius magic
The Looney bin
World of Magic
Merchant of Magic
Plus many others which have been mentioned here on TM from time to time. They're all good (otherwise we'd have fried 'em well before now!) but you'll have to check out the prices etc and make your own choice as they all vary from time to time and special offers can change things overnight.

May i also add JB Magic to the list of good Dealers. They always treat their customers fair. I have never used PM and now i don't think i ever will.

Considering all the hours of discussion we have had on TM regarding copying and copyright I can only assume that this situation highlights everything that is wrong in our hobby/profession.

The problem is that we live in a world of conditional morality where everyone will take a stand until they realise that they will have to pay more. Can I put my dog collar on for a second and add this comment: "you don't muzzle the ox thatgrinds the grain" and "the workjman is worthy of his (right) reward".

Bottom line, if we support shops that duplicate (nicer term than might be used) trick and sell them without the proper money being received by the author then we are accomplices in an act of theft. Money should not be our bottom line but integrity should be what shapes us.

To modify slightly a famous end line "All done by kindness and integrity" this should be our tenet and the measure of all who indulge in magic and those who seek to undermine or ignore this will destroy our great hoby and the fraternity that we are.

Desist from using those companies that are 'dodgy' (strat-O-Sphere or Joker tube?) and avoid paying to those who work in magic what they are due. Publicise the fact to beginners in our craft and perhaps even mail PM and tell them that their link has become invisible.

Pay a little more and have more tricks developed or pay less and watch the well eventually run dry.

Vic

ps. I've sent my mail!