talkmagic.co.uk

I saw something this afternoon on TV which completely disgusted me and has been playing on my mind ever since. However, I want to put this response in context before asking you guys what you think.

Going way back…I was raised in a fundamentalist Christian family but rejected all of that nonsense before I turned 15. I then became interested in occultism and the Western Mystery Tradition when I was an undergraduate several years later, and joined a noted ‘magickal’ organisation inspired by the great beast himself, Aleister Crowley. By the time I was 25 I’d become tired of grades and initiations, and began to follow the Chaos Magic scene until approx’ 2 years later when I stumbled into Buddhism and Hinduism. Threading this stuff together I then managed to shoehorn my spiritual obsessions into an MA and started to do serious research into theology, philosophy and psychology. Upon turning 30--and after having my writing ambitions finally realised in selling a screenplay to Warner Bros--I then mentally settled down a bit and took stock of the last 10 years to see what I’d actually been doing. The truth was simply that I’d obsessively run a script that I had in part been both fighting against/succumbing to since I was a kid, as I was seeking an ephemeral and transcendent ‘something’ that remained just always out of reach. When coupled to the research I’d done in Philosophy of Mind and Evolutionary Theory, this realisation was akin to a glass of cold water in my face, and I found my POV taking an atheistic and scientifically materialistic turn which has cheerfully carried me up to my 35th birthday.

To then get back to the point after this brief preamble, what I saw on TV this afternoon was sickening to me in a number of respects. Turning on Sky I was treated to one of the most blatant examples of ‘cold reading’ that I have ever seen cynically dressed up as some form of the ‘real psychic deal’, and I must thank Ian Rowland for pointing out just how easy it is to spin the dynamics of this kind of junk. The medium in question openly fished for information via vague references to a popular singer, before pulling a family (two daughters and their mother) completely apart with alleged messages from their deceased loved one. At the conclusion, the three now clearly traumatised women were sitting and crying as this despicable vulture-in-a-suit span them one open-ended line after another. He was apparently hearing references to an incident concerning a cooker and some trouble about cleaning it--did that mean anything to them? Likewise, they had apparently brought three photographs of their dead father/husband with them (while failing to mention that many of the audience had probably been asked to do the same - a nice bit of pre-show work for the benefit of the camera) and suggesting that the deceased had passed over from a blood disorder or via loss of blood, which conveniently covered most imaginable bases. My own reaction was one of wishing that that I had been in the audience so I might have unexpectedly stood up, whacked the guy across the head with my chair, and then shouted “ isn’t it a pity that the voices didn’t warn you about THAT?” while the floor manager and security pulled me away. I mean, where is the comeback against people who tear grieving families apart as if they were little more than emotionally powered ATM’s???

In the Mentalist hobby that I have again started to recently enjoy, I am always quick to state that I have no ‘genuine’ psychic ability and actually doubt that such abillities exist, just as Derren Brown, Steve Shaw and Richard Osterlind likewise maintain. In light of that, I then wonder at the mentality of a performer who can claim, with a straight face, that they are in touch with the souls of dead while doing the equivalent psychological work of opening a billet or taking a peek at an impression. Indeed, I have to ask how anyone, in a routine or outside of it, can stand on a stage and deliver a torrent of psychic garbage to an audience or 1 on 1 to a spec? When as a reasonably intelligent bloke I found myself wasting years of my life on this rubbish, I have to question any material which promotes supernatural waffle while actually knowing better and running a cheap con.

Consequently, my question to the forum is simply what you think about this take on the subject and how far ethics should play a part in what we do?

Best Wishes,

Nathan.

Well said, but I have to say that your anger is pointed slightly in the wrong direction. Some of your focus seems to fall upon the religious groups you have encountered and later moved away from. With the full exception of Mr. Crowley, it would be wrong to point the finger at these groups in general. The foundations come from a good place - it's the practitioners who disgrace it.

You spoke of wasting years of your life on rubbish - but I have to disagree here. Your resentment comes from first-hand experience, but in no way should that make YOUR efforts seem meaningless. You were searching for answers - the fact that you might not have found them hardly means the trip isn't worth it.

Yes, there are those who prey upon others with their knowledge (cold reading, NLP, etc) - but these are a far cry from people who do it for entertainment purposes.

You cannot compare Derren Brown to a guy like John Edward. It is a horrific thing to watch these scam artists feed on the weakness, pain, emotional instability and unquestioning faith. As far as ethics goes - it's a person-to-person basis. No matter what anyone does - it won't go away.

There will always be someone who believes in it - and there will always be someone there to exploit it.

It all comes down to you, my friend.

John Edward & Co have been taken to task many times before for this sort of thing and, like you, I find it very questionable - especially when presented as 'entertainment'. However, it has to be said that the audience apply to go on that show, there's quite a waiting list for tickets, so they are expecting to see the sort of things which get broadcast. I'm not saying that they deserve to be ripped off and I personally find the whole thing quite repulsive - especially when folks are reduced to tears by someone who is blatantly fishing and interpreting bits of information in many ways until they get a result. After all the pre-show work, the typical half hour show is usually an edited version of two or more hours of recording so all the 'failures' are left on the cutting room floor - if only we could do that in real life!

Edward and his contemporaries also have successful touring stage shows which tends to suggest that it's largely stage managed and a money making process. As Ian has said, there's not much point in taking these tricksters to task because many of their supporters will defend them to the hilt and unfortunately it only gives them more publicity. I'd love to see how H.Houdini would have dealt with these folks though!

Gypsies have performed this type of poop for years... these guys are no more than fairground charlatans with a TV show.

Mentalism & ethics is a subject with a divide, I think.

It all depends on whether you're doing it for entertainment, or as a con.

Personally, what I do is for entertainment. It's 'real' enough to be believable in the context of a MAGIC show, but that's where it ends.

In a recent posting concerning the validity of ESP experiments, I touched on the subject of it being very bad taste to comfort bereaved families.

I will also add here that the mother of a good friend of mine when I was at school attempted suicide twice after visiting a medium in a 'village hall' paid-for session. She'd been apparently convinced that her sister was waiting for her on the other side and loved her very much—and I guess she wanted to join her.

This kind of false-hope and desperation is the fuel which these mediums feed on. And as we all know, cold reading isn't exactly rocket science—and potentially anyone from any background could become a 'parlour medium', capable of causing considerable harm.

Thanks guys.

Yeah, Seige, that’s exactly the point I was aiming at. Cold reading is a grift and it might be used in the context of magic to demonstrate that kind of nefarious skill, providing it was offered with a caveat either before or after the demo. What worries me is when these alleged mediums--like this John Edward guy in question--run the show on an entirely false claim and never let it drop at any point. As Steve Shaw states, he often has people talking to him after a performance in the hope that they’ve met a real psychic EVEN AFTER he’s explained that he’s performing illusions. Y’know, the need in people for something ‘more’ or something truly ‘miraculous’ should never be underestimated, and only a cynical, mean spirited person is going to be the kind to cash in on that, and magic should not lend them support imo.

As for the other issues about religion and my experiences with it, I can only say that cults and their contemporary teachers/gurus are a billion $ industry--which scarcely even touches on the organised religions which have hundreds of millions of $’s running through their accounts. As far as I can tell none of these groups make any claims made on evidence or demonstrable proof but rather depend on ‘faith’ and a saddening degree of ignorance concerning the sciences, coupled to simple human weakness and a need for easy answers to support themselves. Consequently there is no way I can feel easy with that, and after being one of the duped punters I am a little cross with both myself and the people I got duped by.

Cheers,

Nathan

If you can speed read the credits at the end of the JE programmes, there's usually a phrase along the lines that the foregoing is for entertainment only - inferring that none of it is real and which runs contrary to what's being said and done in that programme. Shame they don't put that in big letters right at the start.

Some very interesting comments and observations...

Now it's my turn :twisted:

Firstly, for someone that studied the Eastern philosophies I find it strange that you didn't come to the conclusion that what you sought was not "outside" of you but rather, within. Ironically, Jesus himself taught this very same thing... not to trust the clergy but keep your faith and communion with the divine a thing that is within you and not for public viewing or display (funny, how his followers always tend to forget that part... )

I've been a student of religion and philosophy for much of my life and even gained a life-achievement degree in Divinity & Metaphysics some years back as the result of such studies. I consider myself to simply have a hobby when it comes to theology however; I've never used my ministry credential (and kick myself frequently over the fact that I just don't have that much larceny in my make-up, for doing so and living "tax free" on easy street.) I am however a Reader, it is the area I've not only gained a potent reputation in, it's something I excell at. As such I'm quite aware of the con-games as well as the more dangeroud predator types that exist in the "shut-eye" side of things. A related "hobby" of mine has been investigating and aiding law enforcement in breaking up the more dangerous and saddistic of these shams. I bring that out for a very important reason; to reveal the fact that I'm not some gullible fool when I make the following points.

I jokingly state that I have a 3% belief factor. That is to say that I've seen and experienced far too much to say that it's all hookem e.g. I believe that "something" exists that is outside our CURRENT ability to define, meassure and prove and/or manipulate.

Since I was exceptionally young I've had the uncanny ability to simple "know" things about people that I meet. This upset family members and ministers so much that I had hands laid upon and just about everything but a hard core exercism so as to cast out this "demon" side within me. None of which worked!

The reason it didn't work is because such abilities are 100% natural in my opinion. That is why when I do lectures, workshops and my shows I refer to myself as an Intuitionist and remove from the minds of the public, the more fantasiful notions allied with things like the paranormal, psychic ability and of course magick/prayer.

The deeper occult teachings likewise remove all the horse pucky and break it all down to a handful of basic sciences; Psychology, Physics and Chemistry. In other words, the truests within esoteric philosophy know it's not some disembodied entity that makes things happen, they see it from a more analytical or "scientific" point of view. In short, we've had a few dozen centuries in which other words, terms as well as perspective lent to these things, a different kind of idea e.g. the words and terms are different but the end outcome is the same -- it's all science!

Yes, there are elements allied to the esoteric side of things that could be seen as "abstract" and too, there are issues taken by mankind when something can't be set down in black & white and proven as a point of concrete fact. But hey, we've been trying to accurately forecast the weather for over 200 years now via the auspices of science and we still get it wrong a good portion of the time.

Fact of the matter is, we know of electricity and how to manipulate it and yet, we cannot explain it. Same can be said about magnitism and various other "energy" currents that we are just now beginning to discover and exploit.

When it comes to this particular issue I always try to encourage folks to get ALL the available information, including that which comes from sources (in our case) that are outside of magic. The Rowland book offers some great insights, but I can assure you that it also has many holes in it and a small load of misinformation. Ian was a skeptic when he walked into that world and has remained such e.g. what he's shared is instantly biased.

When was the last time you read your Richard Webster or Ron Martin materials on this topic?

You see, if you want to learn how to be a plumber you don't ask a carpenter to teach you the trade. In this instance, it would make better sense to study and learn about the art of being a Reader from the folks that actually do it for a living who are friendly with the magic community.

Another point of fact that everyone loves to ignore, is that up until roughly 30 years ago (the mid-70s) some of the most famous and successful "Mentalists" of the late 19th and most of the 20th century never called themselves such nor did they interact with the magic community on the public level. They were promoted as Telepathist, Clairvoyant's, Hypnotists, Master Minds and Mediums (read your Robert Nelson books, that will give you a bit of an idea around this sort of action). They did not do card tricks or try to present a telekenetic ballet by bending every piece of flatware in a facility -- they were Psychics, plain and simple. The show was a lure for getting the private Readings and selling their books, tapes, records, videos and of course, now days it would be the CDs & DVDs, etc. Again, look at the older tomes to see this; Larsen, Boarde and many many others all did it and no one said a thing about it! It was quite simply a part of what the Mentalist did and a prime aspect of said craft.

Yes, a "disclaimer" would be carefully inserted into their presentations and yet, (as Banachek himself will tell you) people still assumed that you were (are) real. This is the allusion we strive to exploit and the very element that lends to us the utmost sense of advantage in doing what we do.

Mentalism, over the past three decades or so, has been undergoing a very strange and oft times cruel act of "purge" that stems directly from the cynics' society (not to be confused with actual skeptics). The magician/cynic whether consciously or not, is being played and guided down a path that seeks to remove from Mentalism (old school) the very advantages and marketing tools it evolved from and has known for generations. In short, "they" want to level the playing field and force the psychic entertainer to have to work the market in the same manner as "they" do; having to deal with agents and all the commercial headaches allied with traditional magic. "They" believe it is unfair for us to be able to make a quick buck at the drop of a hat, by doing Readings and workshops or selling Birth Charts and Numerology Reports.

Why?

Because "they" don't have the same type of income bearing advantages we do... that is, if you are practicing "true" mentalism vs. this stuff that's shown up over the past few years calling itself such.

Not every person that does Readings is a crook or con-person. In fact, the majority of Readers rarely break the $35,000.00 a year gross income bracket unless they have a book or two (not pitch books but real books) and they have jumped onto "the circuit" and done a bit of deliberate promotion. Though this type of person is frequently seen as a "sell out" by the typical shut-eye market, their actions don't always mean that they are out there doing cruel and manipulative things to folks.

Less than 15% of those I've encountered (and I've investigated thousands) actually try to get away with the slight-of-hand B.S. we've read about. The real crooks (about 5% of the industry) are far more wise as well as cruel. Though some would have you believe that the "Psychic Mafia" no longer exists, I can assure you that this is a misnomer. It no longer works through the Spiritualists camps as it did long ago, but it is alive and well via certain familial groups that prey on the ignorant and superstitious charging for spell casting, the removal of curses and so much more. We just recently busted one such operator here in town and are working on another. Which brings me back to the begining and tieing this all up...

Yes, there are crooks and really nasty people in this side of the trade, but it's important for us to not paint everyone with the same wide brush. The crooks are a minority factor and because one gets caught here and there, certain factions allude to the supposition that all people in this or that category have to be the same.

The debate should not be set around if or not such phenomena is real or not but more along the lines of how do we cull the pack and seperate the chaff from the grain? How do we identify the real bad guys that are literally stealing folks blind in contrast to those that offer an honest services for a minor fee and in so doing, actually supply a valuable service to the community.

I hear you all moaning over that, but as I said, not all Readers are evil and underhanded. Too, if it weren't for low life SOBs like myself that worked in the Shut Eye market, there would be far more of the real crooks and con-men getting away with their dangerous games... so think about it.

Craig, please could you define how you are using some of the terms you regularly use such as Shut-eye and skeptic as I think that there might be a different slant on them? When I read your posts I sometimes get a little confused I'm afraid!

No problem...

Shut or Wink Eye = Those persons who are are not involved with magic/mentalism who either work in or patronize businesses associated with the esoteric, metaphysical thought, psychics, etc.

A Skeptic = Those who take everything with a small Ukranian Salt Mine and not at face value. We look into and around the issue WITHOUT a predisposition as to what it may or may not be but in short, we don't take things at face value or at first glance, we investigate. A true Skeptic extends respect to the beliefs and testimony of others rather than beratting them or other acts of humiliation

A Cynic = One that is generally angry at the world and thinks everything is in black & white and no grey areas exist. They tend to be rather fanatical when it comes to their acts of defamation regardless the issue and never consider any evedence that may exist from reliable sources that runs contrary to his/her opinion. Rather than accept findings, they seek to discredit the source. This kind of individuals does not care who he/she hurts or why. They tend to be "bullies" in their attitude and have little to no respect for any kind of authority outside of their own niche concept of what is and is not "authoritative" i.e. science, religion, polictical and social ideas, etc. In short, they are closed minded.

A Reader = a Person that employs either natural intution, book knowledge and/or an esoteric system of divination as a counseling tool. They are NOT Prophets (a major misconception) and do not predict the future in the same sense as a prophet would; they literally READ the system they use in conjunction with the person and intuitional feelings they have around the issue and translate them. What is presented, in way of "forecast" is what could happen based on current "energies" or "forces" in the patron's life. Said forecasts are done to help the patron make decisions, not to reveal what is going to be what down the road. The client still retains his/her freedom of will and the ability to shift things in the present so as to change the outcome towards the good or the bad.

It must be remembered too that what we now refer to as the Mental Health industry got its impetus from the study of this particular art form, which was, prior to the early 20th century, considered by most as a healthy and very legitimate field of practice. The status changed with the advent of the American Spiritualists movement and associated exposure of fake mystics/mediums and psychics between 1915 and the 1930s. Ironically, the 20s-early 40s was the "Golden Era" of the Radio Psychic (Robert Nelson played at least 3 different ones on various networks for many a long year.)

A Charlatan = (And I think you'll find that this is very much how Kellar and Houdini viewed things) Is a predator that employs spiritual/mystical type ambiance (in regards to what we are discussing here, other "vehicles" can likewise be used such as science, politics, etc.) as a means to pyschological entrap their "marks" for the sake of explotation, be it financial or based on other interests such as sexual abuse, theft of property, the creation of a cult following, etc.

Hope this helps

Craig... your words are humbling.

Thank you so much for taking the time to post, it's a real eye opener, and I apologise to anyone in the industry who ISN'T a con artist if any of my 'blinkered' comments have seemed harsh.

But I've seen first-hand the damage that the self-proclaimed power of these people can cause.

Respect.

Perhaps some of this should be duplicated in the Mentalists Only Area - especially those definitions from Craig?

Perhaps some of this should be duplicated in the Mentalists Only Area - especially those definitions from Craig?

I can understand why you would think this Mandrake but to be honest with you, I think these are some "lessons" more of us need to be aware of (so long as it doesn't create and "issue"). I believe if you ponder on what I'm saying you can understand why.

Craig... your words are humbling.

Thank you so much for taking the time to post, it's a real eye opener, and I apologise to anyone in the industry who ISN'T a con artist if any of my 'blinkered' comments have seemed harsh.

But I've seen first-hand the damage that the self-proclaimed power of these people can cause.

Respect.

You have no idea how much I appreciate hearing this, especially from someone that obviously has some sense of background in the craft, such as yourself. You are a rare bird.

I too have seen how the "underhanded" can destroy people and even entire community groups with a single city.

Some years back I was working in Reno, NV where you have a very heavy Hispanic and Native American population; a set of cultures that are very (VERY) superstitious as well as religiously tied e.g. they are exceptionally easy to terrorize if you know the culture and what buttons to push.

After several instances in which people came to me or else had friends come to me with complaint about a certain local Reader who was telling just about all her clients that they were cursed adn for anywhere from a few hundred to several thousand dollars, she could perform a ritual for them and remove this pal. One case in particular this elderly woman was about to sign over $25,000.00... her life savings but her grandson came to me asking what to do.

This is a very touchy situation and unless you actually KNOW a thing or two about ritual magick and metaphysical thinking I do not suggest you even attempt it. None the less, I agreed to work with the boy and his family to "protect" them from this evil sorceress (which is what they saw the charlatan as being) and to cleans their home and family of the "evil" she convinced them existed.

I know this sounds like a scam in and of itself but keep in mind, I must work with the existing thoughts, mind-set and understanding of the people being victimized and, as is my habit when I do Reading work, I want to empower them so they aren't dependent on me or any other "spiritual advisor".

Long story short, for $100.00 in books, candles, oils and sea salt (all products they bought on their own) they were able to find the contentment and peace that was needed.

As to the lady in question... she and her sister ended up skipping town just as a Police raid was about to tighten its grip around them. The Reno PD still arrested several family members and managed to break up the ring.

This kind of situation is precisley why people like myself work in the shut-eye market; to keep our eyes and ears opened for those pesky predators and help divert the innocent from such traps while likewise helping law enforcement when it comes to prosecuting them. This is how a real debunker does his thing, not by following the advice given by Ian Rowland in his famed tome and jumping in to give them a hard time and not pay them for their attempts to work with you in a legitimate session. That's not only childish and disrespectful, it dishonorable and very unprofessional. Oh! And it could quite literally cost you your life.

I'm not kidding on that, if you happened onto an organized group such as I mentioned here, they won't blink an eye to "remove" you from their universe. I have had guns & knives pulled on me more than once and had to deal with the scare tactics some of the more hardened criminals won't hesitate to put into play, if you seem a threat. This is a reality all our Cynical friends over at the Randi forum or CSICops don't tell you about, but it's something you need to seriously think about.

I've been accused of having a knee jerk reaction when it comes to this kind of issue but put yourself in my shoes; I'm being "attacked" by individuals that have little (if any) experience in this field -- as a Reader or as an investigator (I've been doing it for over 30 years) and being told that I'm in the wrong. Now, knowing what I've said in this thread, I'm willing to bet that the majority of you, regardless of your belief in things psychic or not, can now see some sort of legitimate value when it comes to what it is I do... I certainly hope so

BTW... if you really want to get the real shysters, attend a tent revival meeting

I've seen more smooth operations get away with all kinds of things, simply by having a good choir and a chaismatic minister (check out Steve Martin's LEAP OF FAITH and you'll get a very realistic sense of things)

Can I just point out that while i am not as knowledgeable as some of those who have posted in this thread are. This is the internet and so this can be read by most people. I think we should just be careful when making sweeping statements or stating 'facts' as at the end of the day no human will ever have all the answers.

Also, Some people reading this may believe some of these things. I know of people who are certain that others can contact the dead, while I, myself, would fall under the catagory of a Christian.

(I feel a bit stupid posting this after Craigs post - sorry)

Pitto

Perhaps some of this should be duplicated in the Mentalists Only Area - especially those definitions from Craig?

I can understand why you would think this Mandrake but to be honest with you, I think these are some "lessons" more of us need to be aware of (so long as it doesn't create and "issue"). I believe if you ponder on what I'm saying you can understand why.

Yup, I fully understand, that's why I suggested 'duplicate' rather than 'move'. The definitions you give are, IMHO, spot on (at least, the ones I recognise are - shut/wink eye was a new one on me!) and I feel that they would be usefully reproduced in the Mentalists Only Area as reference for other discussions. I'm firmly in category 2 and try to have respect for other beliefs, even if they're widely different from mine. Charlatans exist in most areas of life and even in my limited experience, I've seen a few hiding under the guise of Christianity, Hinduism and Islam - all fakes and all conmen after money or other pecuniary advantage.

I misunderstood what you were saying, but I agree with your motives

One of the things I've pointed out to my critics a few times is how many of us in magic toe the "company line" when it comes to the anti-psychic thing and yet, completely ignore the magic buffs that are swindling folks using slight-of-hand and fast talk on a daily basis.

Busking is an honest line of performance work but, there are many that would steal the shirt off your back if you gave them the chance... I'm an old Carney and I know some of those flim-flams and though people know they're going to lose, they love to play the games. If you doubt that, ask yourself how come all those Casinos in Las Vegas are so big... it's certainly not because of all the big winners