talkmagic.co.uk

I've found this a most interesting post with some very well written sections that cross over into different realms.

It's certainly true to say that there are a number of scammers with little or no conscience who use their so called skills to fleece people out of their possessions. You only need to open the papers to see the number of psychic fairs that are advertised in hotels and leaisure centres which is where I would assume that much of this takes place.

Whilst I have no doubt that there are many more who use their skills for the benefit of others, the behaviours outlined by Craig do nothing for the general reputation of all who practice this.

I think it would be very intresting for a competent mentalist and complete sceptic to pitch an idea for a show to somewhere like Objective, in which he books space at various forms of psychic fair and, with hidden cameras, uses his skills to investigate how belief tends to override common sense when it's something we want to believe. It'd have to be done very carefully, though, so as not to upset sincere punters who think they've been "had".

Not sure if this is the same in other parts of the world but I wonder how many of us had a favourite Aunty/Granny/Neighbour who read the tealeaves for everyone in the neighbourhood? My Granny was well known for being what we now call a Teomancer and never made a penny out if it yet obviously provided a needed ‘service’ which, as far as I know, harmed nobody. I have dim memories of seeing one of the reading sessions which probably followed a known ‘tea ceremony’ progression. The tea would be brewed and poured, drunk whilst chatting about all sorts of things (my suspicious mind now wonders if this would have been a good opportunity for a bit of pre-show work!), at the end of this part the cup to be read would be inverted onto the saucer and rotated a certain number of times in an established direction and left to rest a moment or two for any remaining liquid to drain away from the leaves. Once this was done Granny took the cup, looked into it and began the reading based on interpretation of the shapes seen. I remember the cup was rotated to ‘get a clearer view’ of some shapes so there could be other interpretations depending on which way up the shapes appeared.

My sceptical mind suggests that, as all this was done within a local and probably not very large community, a lot of background information would already be known and would make readings and assessments automatically more relevant- either consciously or subconsciously. The aspirations of the person consulting the reader would also probably be known to a certain extent so, again, the reading would be likely to be tailored to suit. In effect, as long as Granny was a perceptive and understanding soul with experience of life and people, her existing knowledge of the sitter’s life and wishes would mean that she could give a very accurate prediction based on the likelihood of events taking a natural course. Not exactly psychic as most people interpret that word but I’d suggest it’s something very close indeed. Add together the social element of visiting and progressing through an established ceremony/process, use of the best china rather than the everyday cups and saucers in a time of hardship, possibly impoverished circumstances and lack of money, and the implied status of the reader of being ‘special’ and you have a very powerful situation which the modern scam artist would kill for. Cynics would say Granny just guessed or made it all up on the spot but, even if that were the case, her background knowledge would make those guesses more relevant and probably more accurate. I can recall people referring to her as being ‘true’ so I guess that means her predictions were accurate enough to be taken as successful but I can’t really remember any actual detail about them unfortunately.

Truth of the matter is, it's more difficult for a "real" Reader to work with people they actually know than it is for them to work with a total stranger. The reason for this is both, simple as well as logical; a.) It is difficult for us to censor known information from what the oracal itself is and our intuition is telling us, and b.) our own logic will sometimes lead us to the wrong conclusions or assumptions.

Yes, the hustlers out there love having "hot" information on people, but this is not so with genuine/honest Readers. This is one of the reasons I don't like building up a strong group of regular clients that come in more than a couple of times a year, it makes my task a bit more difficult.

Mandrake, you struck up some interesting memories.

My father's mother was just such a lady and add to that, her second husband was a noted Dowser (Water Witch) within the region with an amazing reputation. My great-grandmother on my mother's side used to do Bibliomancy (Readings using the bible) and hand laying type healings with folks along with herbal home remedies... she was very much a gentle soul but a lot like "Granny" in the old Beverly Hillbillies show... but she was the grand-daughter of a noted Cherokee healer (Shaman) so I guess she was just keeping up with the family business...

Like John Riggs, I come from a long line of hustlers and charlatans I've just never had enough of the larceny streak running through me to seriously exploit folks. I strive to use what I know to help, that's it.

Thanks for those definitions Craig, it was Shut-eye that had me confused, I was interpreting it the oposite way round which threw everything else out!

Very interesting thread.

I, like many others think John Edwards and the like are basically con artists twisting the memories of dead relatives to make a living - dispicable, lowest of the low.

If readings are done as 'entertainment' and everybody involved knows that then fine, but if you're telling people that you're in contact with the dead - then you're in the John Edwards category. If any mentalists presents what they do as 'contacting the dead' in order to strengthen the 'effect' they're as bad as Edwards - it's peoples memories of dead loved ones they're playing with! Not predicting playing cards!

There is so much cool, powerful stuff you can do in mentalism without resorting to this horrible horrible business - as Derren Brown, the most famous mentalist in Europe has proved.

I completely agree. Belief is such a strong force on our personalities that it makes me wonder why we enerally tend only to explore its influence on us rather than the thing itself. I don't personally believe that understanding why we believe one thing over another makes what we believe any less real. Perhaps it might give us more control over our lives.

Funnily enough, and just by sheer chance I walked in tonight when Harry Hill's TV burp was on, and he had a section on the TV mediums that have been on this week. This really showed them up.

Derek Ocorah was in a kitchen of someone's house telling the woman owner that he had a spirit next to him that was telling him to remind her that she must go to her eye appointment and then suddenly, he then had a message about a trip to Australia. "do you know anyone that lives in Australia?" he asked.

The woman was taken in and was astounded that he knew all of this. He asked for confirmation to show off his skill when all of a sudden the camera turned around and zoomed in to the notice board in her kitchen where a post it note, entitled things to do said:

1. Book appointment with optician
2. book holiday to Australia

Great exposure!

dat - that is classic! wish I'd seen it!

dat8962 wrote:The woman was taken in and was astounded that he knew all of this. He asked for confirmation to show off his skill when all of a sudden the camera turned around and zoomed in to the notice board in her kitchen where a post it note, entitled things to do said:

1. Book appointment with optician
2. book holiday to Australia

Great exposure!

It's a shame the sign was a fake, lol. I saw it too, and it was an after-shot. But a great joke all the same

TheMightyNubbin wrote:Very interesting thread.

I, like many others think John Edwards and the like are basically con artists twisting the memories of dead relatives to make a living - dispicable, lowest of the low.

If readings are done as 'entertainment' and everybody involved knows that then fine, but if you're telling people that you're in contact with the dead - then you're in the John Edwards category. If any mentalists presents what they do as 'contacting the dead' in order to strengthen the 'effect' they're as bad as Edwards - it's peoples memories of dead loved ones they're playing with! Not predicting playing cards!

There is so much cool, powerful stuff you can do in mentalism without resorting to this horrible horrible business - as Derren Brown, the most famous mentalist in Europe has proved.

Now, let me ask you a serious question or two. How long have you done Readings? How deep have you gotten into hands-on investigation in this kind of thing?

Many (MANY) individuals that have worked in Mentalism for many long years (as in, before it became a trend) will be quick to point out to you that some very strange, unexplainable things happen when you do this kind of stuff. One such situation is what is frequently referred to as being "taken by the spirit"... it's a very strange, eerie and skin-crawling feeling that I've experienced more than a few times but those experiences are exactly why I leave the door open to the possibility that "channeling" can and does happen. I'm not saying this to defend John Edward or Sylvia Browne, just to point out that "something" does happen from time to time and what comes out of your mouth not only hits the nails on the head, it drives them home!

I've had far too many experiences along these lines and no, none of the classic explanations held by the skeptic's world can be applied i.e. a subconscious trigger, subtle smells, etc.

When the cynic's society can tell me how, without ANY form of cue or up-front insight I can hit a client with deep, exceptionally personal and accurate details, I may have to reconsider my position on this. To date, no one has been able to come close.

Yes, there are exploitation artists out there. I've stated that rather loudly, but as I've also stated, there are some "legit" situations out there as well as circumstances (that aren't reproducable) in which "miralces" happen.

Take everything with a pinch of salt but always be willing to consider that there may actually be much more to an issue than the ego and arrogance of man is capable of actually understanding, let alone explain.

Craig, we need to clearly differentiate between things happening we can't currently explain AND what you claim is actually behind them to your client.

As far as I know (and please correct me if I'm wrong) there isn't currently any real repeatable evidence that people can speak to the dead. Until there is it's all down to individual first hand accounts - which whilst interesting, is not conclusive. What you might have experienced is enhanced awareness - but is that in itself proof you are communicating with the spirit world?

I'm not saying you haven't experienced the things you claim, how could I? But until much more rigerous research is completed then one can't with 100% certainty conclude that you are genuinely talking to the dead.

And if you can't be absolutely 100% sure that you are, then in my opinion you shouldn't be claiming anything so potentially damaging to your clients.

Actually, to clarify, because I'm not sure from your previous posts - do you claim to clients that you are in contact with the dead?

Until I see proof (which surely isn't that unreasonable!) all I've ever seen is shysters like John Edwards doing cold reading to make MONEY for himself out of peoples memories of dead relatives.

seige wrote:It's a shame the sign was a fake, lol. I saw it too, and it was an after-shot. But a great joke all the same

Perhaps this video clip is a little more convincing, or less convincing depending on what you think of derek. Piano Problem

Lose the piano, nine... Nine, lose the piano!

Whatever he's actually doing when he performs, I think the thing that annoys me about Akorah is that he comes across as being hurriedly vague. Some fake mediums do it to make it appear that there's tons of stuff coming through, to get you interested and make you want to offer information (doh!) in exchange for more insight, and I can't help but think that he's doing just that. I mean, after all, he's been caught using fabricated evidence designed by a landlord and two regulars to attract tourists to his pub! He also channelled one of the Witchfinder General's assistants as the wrong sex by basing his work on "his" name alone. While there's no evidence thatthese are two isolated cases and that the rest of his stuff is real, I think it's safe to conclude that Akorah's probably a fake by the fact that he did do those two things. And we mustn't forget that Akorah is not all psychics.

However, if he's not breaking the law, the man's got a right to earn a living, and if predisposed people want to believe in him then they're perfectly free to allow themselves that pleasure. It probably makes them very happy. I just wish that Fielding woman would grow up and stop screaming like it's still the first show...

As I stated earlier, I don't think the issue is whether things are "real" or not, it's really the matter of finding the money grabbers that really do cause harm and getting them off the market.

Even Randi has finally conceded to the fact that people are going to believe no matter what's said or "proven" one way or the other. On the other hand, even showing them footage such as this or the Peter Popoff tapes won't convince them... any first year psych student knows that change only comes when it becomes the client's idea.

When I teach, do Readings or perform I plant very subtle seeds that encourage people to think and see the idea of being Psychic in a different way. In try to invoke their logic and remove the fantasy and misconceptions so many assume due to the intentional misinformation that's out there. Ironically, some of the same misnomers are put out by those from opposite ends of the issue i.e. the terms Psychic Powers or Supernatural Abilities.

In my experience there is no "power" to it outside of discipline and a lot of hard study along with practice. It's an on-going course in human study along side the esoteric and it can be a very fun and eye-opening ride. Even things like PK seem to host certain scientific bits of confirmation but not those that sustain the more fantasiful (Uri Gellar) type ideas, more akin to what can be cause via natural electro-magnetic impulses... which is, after all, how the brain works; a fact that science has been experimenting and now exploiting to a great degree via "Though Command" type control systems and even the use of biorythms.

As to the fable of things "Supernatural" well, that's right up there with things like Government or Military "Intelligence"... it's something that simply cannot be in that it goes contrary to nature and/or natural law. Even those that study and practice Ritual Magick will tell you that it's all based on physics, chemistry and personal psychology and not something otherworldly.

I guess you could say that perspective is the real key behind all this squabble and depending upon your point of view (education) you may see things as being something it is not. Take a look at the Katrina situation here in the states; you have idiots (a.k.a. Evangelists) telling their congregations that the devestation was "God's Punishment" because New Orlean's was so corrupt and wicked...what about all the other communities that got nailed that were filled with god-fearing folk?

Comic/Talk Show host Jay Leno pointed out how Pat Robertson claimed that the stroke suffered by Isreal's primeminister was because he agreed to give back Gaza... it was a punishment. Jay's comment pointing out that Robertson's Prostate Cancer was because God was sick and tired of him being such a pain in the ass.

So long as the masses listen to idiots of power and position like Robertson (and at least one born again fool that's in a rather higher position of influence, that comes to mind) it is going to be very difficult to help them see a more logical truth -- alternate perspective. However, many of these individuals will come to see someone like me who, if they are lucky, will help them mull over things and all going well, slowly change not just their "beliefs" but how they view the greater whole of things.

Removing the "Blinders" cannot be done in a manner that is bullish or arrogant. Randi has proven that over the past 30 or so years of his campaign. His hard handed approach has only made people dig their heels in deeper and resent everything he's presented. That is, until he started exploiting an old trick known to cultists of all forms; he started lectureing college students and preying on the younger, still formative minds of young adults. He, like most snake oil salesmen, understood when and how to strike when the iron was at its hottest. It's an old trick and he's used it well... it's made him quite comfortable in his old age. Which takes us to another extreme when it comes to a simple, albeit well circulated suppostion -- who's really getting hustled the most, the believers or those that sustain the Randi idea?

There is a very small, yet growing movement to prove Randi the bigger fraud and con-man from within and outside the magic industry and some rather interesting bits of evedence that sustain their movtives. The kind of things that makes you go "Hmmmm"... if you know what I mean.

Let's not debate the validity of what is real and not, that always turns into a heated argument and hurt feelings. So far we've avoided this and believe me, I applaude each of you for your sense of dichorum. But I think we need to look more at the real issue... the real crooks vs. those who have an honest belief in what they do and who aren't out to do harm or ripp folks off in a grotesque manner.

I'm quite aware that many believe that anyone that does Readings is in the wrong but I also believe that's because they have yet to actually study and understand the whole of the issue... just one biased side. I doubt that they are aware just how much this skill is apart of what Mentalism was up until a few short years ago and how many of their heroes in this industry actually work at least part-time as such (and we're talking some major names here.) As I said before, who would you rather have doing a Reading for your mother, one of us who at least has some training and enough integrity to guide her on a more positive path that's free of co-dependence, or some shut-eye that just bought a deck of Tarot cards and thinks they know what it's all about? Or worse, a genuine shyster that will gain her confidence in such a way as to cost you any chance of inheirtance?

People like me help police the industry in many ways, so don't shoot us all down simply because of what you've read in the Rowland book or heard Randi regurgitating.