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From what I understand, there are 'clues' in his paintings?

Eh...the mind boggles. Dan Brown must have been very bored

Da Vinci 'clues' in paintings is a myth. Many famous art experts have studied his work and found no evidence. Da Vinci did indeed draw helicopters, he had visions (and drew) early tanks and submarines. Interesting guy

I read the Da Vinci code and wouldn't really recommend it to anyone. Sure it's an interesting story but there were so many flaws in his basic research that I wouldn't trust any of the 'facts' he includes. It is also more or less impossible to tell what is a result of his research and what is pure fabrication. I also don't like his writing style and the identity of the Teacher was horribly transparent.

As to 'clues' in Da Vinci's paintings, I'm open to being convinced either way on this, I have seen arguments for and against by art historians and the like.

If you want a laugh, a good spoof of it is the Va Dinci Cod. Hilarious!

stephenmagic wrote:Da Vinci 'clues' in paintings is a myth. Many famous art experts have studied his work and found no evidence. Da Vinci did indeed draw helicopters, he had visions (and drew) early tanks and submarines. Interesting guy

Crazy. I'm starting to think Da Vinci was a time traveller or something, maybe I should write a book!

Or Not.

I don't know why everyone is so sort of serious with this book, rember, it's fiction! Dan brown just thought it'd be interesting and about everyone i know couldn't put the book down. Alot of it is quite believable but of course there is no proof to back it up. There's hardly any proof to back anyhting up in the bible though apart from it, itself.

If you're interested in any of this, have a look at dan browns site and his gallery http://www.danbrown.com/secrets/davinci ... upper.html .

I just thought it wa sinteresting what was said about the one person at the last supper that was a woman and believed to be Mary Magdelene and that if you copied mary over to the other side of jesus she would e resting on his shoulder. Also the fact about the mirror image of clothes they are wearing.

Don't want to start a holy war, all I'm saying is that this was quite an interesting book and film and Dan Brown will obviously be a very wealthy man soon.

I STRONGLY DISAGREE!!

Delude wrote:Dan Brown will obviouls tbe a very wealthy man soon.

I think he probably is one already..

sorry - couldn't resist that

Actually - the thing I like about a book like the Da Vinci Code is that it made me think about what I believe and why I believed it. How much of what I take as fact, is really just popular opinion etc.
His writing is clever - he makes a statement of fact in the beginning (although some of that is a bit misguided). The main character is an expert in his field. It is written in an informative way. This is a really good example of suggestion..
He draws you in, engages you on a deep level (what we believe) and then leaves it open-ended - forcing you to come to your own conclusion. I like it

What does annoy me is that yesterday when I went to the mythology section of a bookshop - there was nothing on mythology. All of it was just devoted to popular junk - all riding on the popularity of Dan Brown's book.

As to tricks of the bible (the origional thread ) - I think something like that misses the point. Sure it's possible to duplicate some of that stuff. The real question is if you can get the same results . That not only applies to the bible - but to other traditions and myths. One can explain some of what Shamans do, but the point isn't in the 'method' - it's in the meaning within a certain context. (see Magic and Meaning - Eugene Burger & Robert E. Neale)

Yes he must be very rich. Aside from the abvove, I don't think the DVC is a particularly well written book. Angels and Demons is better IMHO

Pitto wrote:I don't want this debate AT ALL because no one will persuade anyone else but I don't feel I can sit and read this as someone who is a Christian:

Delude:

I don't know if this is what you meant but if you think that the Da Vinci code in any way disproves Jesus or the bible you are wrong. Other things may do that is up to everyone on a personal level but

a)The book/film has this whole idea produced a a theory anyway within a piece of fiction

b) there are so many unbelievable plot floors that it couldn't prove anything - the main one being that if this group are Christian and are trying stop "the truth getting out" but they know the truth, so why stop it and why believe.

Sorry everyone thtat's not really relevent but I felt that I had to say it.

Ok, What I'm about to state is NOT an attack on those here that consider themselves to be "Christians" but I do want to point out some things both, within the aforementioned vein a swell as the subject of this thread.

First and foremost, DaVinci Code is in fact a NOVEL based on both, legit research and (for lack of a better term) Urban Legend (such as some of the Masonic tie-in, etc.) BUT don't fool yourself for one second that Rome and it's b***** children (a.k.a. the Protestant and American Christian factions) wouldn't kill to keep certain truths or ideas suppressed. They have, they will and they still do!

I've studied world religions since I was in my teens (was actually being pushed towards the ministry at one point in my life... but I found I had far more integrity running through me than that type of job called for), and I just happen to have one of those funny pieces of paper hanging on my wall that says something about my having a Doctorates Degree on this particular subject and related histories. Add to that, one of my "hobbies" over the years has been researching and studying the "missing" scriptures and "omitted" books of the bible.

If I were to apply a christian label to myself is would fall hand in hand with Gnosticis but in truth, I lean more towards what the orginal Druids were and we can just leave it at that.

As to the biblical "miracles" we need to place them all into context and more important, ask ourselves as 21st century magicians, if we'd fall for such demonstrations in today's world or join the Randi cult in its effort to prove everything of this type, fake and part of a scam?

We claim to be magicians and the current vogue along that title is that we must be antheistic in our attitude and opinions when it comes to any sort of miracle or manifestation -- belief in and of anything outside of man and our intellect et al.

Yes, I'm laying it on thick gang and I'm doing so, not to challenge our christian members as much as I am attempting to shine light on some things some of you may not have digested and considered when it comes to some of the current attitudes and issues within magic.

Fact is, the majority of the "miracles" within the bible and most other "sacred" texts has been explained and too, much of what people take exoterically (literally) is actually metaphoric and esoteric (a mystery or has deeper meaning) e.g. many people simply don't get it. Add to this acts of misinterpretation as well as misrepresentation via the auspices of both, the clergy and laiety around certain idea like the existence and casting out of demons (disease, mental illness, etc. not little nasties or fallen fairy folk or even evil angels).

Anywho... I think Pitto reaction bring out one other important thing that some simply don't wiegh when it comes to the two-pence they insist on tossing into the proverbial pot prior to engaging that grey stuff resting between their ears -- it's called RESPECTING OTHERS which includes allowing people to hold to their beliefs, testimony and understanding with dignity that is comparable to how you want them to look at and treat you for the same.

This has become an axe of mine that is being ground to a fine edge. We've all gone too far in our acts of disrepect; defending such rudness on the grounds that we have the right to speak our mind (all the while, ignoring the obligation and burden such freedom brings with it). Bottom line is, we've become a bit blind, selfish, and cruel over the past decade or so and it's time for us to get back on track as to what magic is supposed to be about... entertaining folks!

Craig - I like what you're saying and I agree with you. Just one question - what do you mean by 'entertaining folks'. Often magicians and mentalists use that as a disclaimer - "as long as what we're doing is for entertainment purposes only" - as if it's "as long as you don't see this as being real".

I'm trying to get hold of the book "The death and resurrection show: from Shaman to superstar" - by Rogan Taylor. It's just a bit outside of my budget at the moment. What I suspect it is about is the evolution of entertainment - how origionally it started as a means of conveying myth - a means of getting us in touch with the mystery of being alive. I'd really like what I do to be more along those lines..

(Or maybe I'm just being a bit too intense )

I love the way the first page starts with the word "FACT" then goes on to describe hoax (the Priory of Sion) perpetrated in the 1950s! Even the idea of the Grail itself is a 11th century French pun!

A mathematician interviewed on BBC4 last night, and who happens to work at the place where the Sophie character is supposed to have studied cryptology, said that he'd stopped joking that he taught her because people had started asking in all seriousness what she's like!

Mind you, ITV had a programme about three people looking into the whole thing on Sunday night. The historian who explained that the book is based not on a conspiracy but is a fantasy made up by a thriller writer was almost raging by the end of his encounter with one of them. The argument went something like this:

"This is just a thriller. You realise that, don't you?"
"Yes, we know. But what if it were real?"
"In that case, it'd be real."
"A-ha! There you are then." (smugly folds his arms)
"There I am what? It's just a thriller."
"Yes, we know. But what if it were real?"
"In that case, it'd be real."
"A-ha! There you are then." (smugly folds his arms again)
...etc...

I honestly thought the historian was going to either scream at the man, punch him out for being so incredibly stupid, walk off or possibly all three. It was hilarious!

We seem to have strayed somewhat off topic, however...

On the Da Vinci Code issue - I couldn't be bothered to read the book, but I did see the film because someone had bought me a ticket. It seemed reasonably entertaining, though I can see why some Christians get a bit worked up about it.

[POST edited by me to remove some issues that might be considered controversial, and detract from the discussion of magic]

Delude wrote:
I just thought it wa sinteresting what was said about the one person at the last supper that was a woman and believed to be Mary Magdelene and that if you copied mary over to the other side of jesus she would e resting on his shoulder. Also the fact about the mirror image of clothes they are wearing.

Another historian came up with the idea that it was one of Jesus' disciples, just he was very effeminate. And that they were having a homosexual relationship. Quite the leap to make.

I love how everyone is making the effort to drag it back to the original post

When it comes down to people's beliefs there will always be controversy and someone getting offended by it. Someone out there is probably offended by Tricks of the Bible, or by magic all together actually

Taiven_Grant wrote:I love how everyone is making the effort to drag it back to the original post

lol, well the da vinci code certainly has that in its favour - it's an interesting and controversial story.

I suspect that the channel 4 programme will either suffer from being a bit silly and frivolous in terms of how it's presented (ie. treating it as a joke), or will go down the debunking route, and just suck. I can't see many ways to present this sort of stuff sensibly. The alternative would be to present it as a series of miracles which would offend pretty much everybody across the belief spectrum.

I'll probably watch it if I happen to catch it though.

Maybe, just maybe, a couple of magicians thought to themselves "Hey, there's some cool sounding stuff in the bible, wouldn't it be good if we recreated some of it as magic effects? After all it would be entertaining for people and that's our job."

Does everyone have to have an agenda for everything nowadays folks? That's my little on topic rant anyway, I'm quite looking forward to this as it happens.

As for the Davinci code, both film and book suck major ass and that's all there is to it. So there.