talkmagic.co.uk

B0bbY_CaT wrote:

memorire wrote:But i bet dinosaurs werent that happy either that their environment was destroyed.

Your comment is illogical and outside the context of the discussion. No one is debating whether or not Dinosaurs were unhappy at their demise. However they did NOT contribute to an Ice Age, a Meteor Strike or the like, nor were they capable of changing their circumstances.

We on the other hand are directly contributing to our own circumstances. The two issues could not be less related.

Dinosaurs were selected for extinction by nature. We have not been "selected", some say we are volunteering.

I can only say that dinosaurs were smarter then us. And uhm you want to change our circumstances? kill half of the worlds population and we will have a situation where our life wont have that huge an impact on the environment. Or you seriously think thats it is possible at this dvanced stage ov technological development to stop all the factors that will lead to our demise without drasticly changing the living standards.

Btw what is our context of discussion? as far as i was concerned the context was not if the dinosaurs were happy or not but how we impacted the planet in the last 50 years. and i persist on that our impact is way less still than that of the "natural" causes. to be honest i dont see how our impact is not natural btw. we are children of this planet...how can something that we do be unnatural? only because we use tools to dig our grave doesnt means that its different from "natural" causes in terms of result. dont you think that is a natural thing that our lifestyle leads to some ecological catastrophy which will decimate the population of those who lead to it and thus reinstore balance again?

memorire wrote:So most ppl dont have the need to think or dont feel the urge to change. To be honest neither do I. I am 25 now. I live very healthy and am very healthy. Lets say I will live some more 60 years. Well I dont see anything changing to the better in the next 60 years. We have enough technology fixes to delay the inevitable. So why should I bother? Why should I try ad make the world better for ppl who dont deserve it?

B0bbY_CaT wrote:You have injected the other key issue regarding our plight... beyond Generation X, after Generation Y, your attitude reflects the latest gem... Generation ME.

so whats your point here?

B0bbY_CaT wrote:Fact is, the small guy CAN make a difference. In fact it is the influence of the little guy that has encouraged brands like Nike, Reebok, adidas, Billabong, Quiksilver etc to be major contributors in improving the Chinese impact on the environment.

dream on little guy

greets

memorire wrote:

B0bbY_CaT wrote:Fact is, the small guy CAN make a difference. In fact it is the influence of the little guy that has encouraged brands like Nike, Reebok, adidas, Billabong, Quiksilver etc to be major contributors in improving the Chinese impact on the environment.

dream on little guy

greets

Dream on??? On what basis beyond cynical ignorance do you disagree with this?

memorire wrote:

B0bbY_CaT wrote:You have injected the other key issue regarding our plight... beyond Generation X, after Generation Y, your attitude reflects the latest gem... Generation ME.

so whats your point here?

My point is, the attitude you describe "Generation ME" is every bit as damaging as the waste and pollution discussed earlier.

memorire wrote:Btw what is our context of discussion? as far as i was concerned the context was not if the dinosaurs were happy or not but how we impacted the planet in the last 50 years. and i persist on that our impact is way less still than that of the "natural" causes. to be honest i dont see how our impact is not natural btw.

So you mean to say that since a meteor could finish us off anyway, we can treat the environment with contempt because it's just "evolution"? With all due respect.... absolute nonsense.

Gotta say I'm with B0bby_CaT on this one....

If you're saying that one person can't make a difference that's simply untrue. In most human endeavor the reverse is true..... it's usually 'one' person that does indeed make the difference. Might not be me, might not be you.... but it will, eventually, be somebody!!

People are never inspired by committee's or governments. People are inspired by individuals and the ideas they passionately believe in. And passion is a much stronger emotion that apathy.... and it's catching..


"A journey of a thousand miles begins with one small step"
(old chinese proverb)

And that's a whole post without me once mentioning the Ants.... doh!!

B0bbY_CaT wrote:So you mean to say that since a meteor could finish us off anyway, we can treat the environment with contempt because it's just "evolution"? With all due respect.... absolute nonsense.

Thats like those highly irritating people who smoke, and their attitude towards it is ' You may as well, you could get knocked down by a bus tomorrow '.

Indeed you could, but the odds are in your favour that you won't. And if you believe you may well get knocked down by a bus tomorrow, what then is the point of doing ANYTHING?

Okay we can go back on thread now, though i dont really know what that is......

So we're agreed one man can make a difference but on the other hand they can't.

On the subject of ants. With my experiments, we can only "see how it goes"...

What about apes, if evolution is the case why have they not evolved yet? I think they're up to something. Maybe it's just me but we need to keep a close eye on the apes.

That's not how evolution works. Apes don't slowly transform, their children will have random mutations at some point or another and if this mutation means they can live longer through avoiding predators then it gets passed on, if it gives them a disadvantage they die out faster.

There are random mutations all the time with all animals, plants and insects but in the case of humans the mutations don't give us advantage or disadvantage because society looks after us. A man born with no right leg won't have to worry about predictors or not being able to hunt, they'll be given a prosthetic leg. And will be able to get practically any job they want to feed themselves and they're family.

Apes are the same, we keep them in zoos and make reserves for them so it doesn't matter what mutations they get, because we look after them and breed them and feed them etc.

But evolution happens all the time, like pepper moths. They used to all be black now they're all white and why? Because big white factory's were put up in they're environment and suddenly black moths stand out to predictors, through random mutation a white moth is born and is able to blend in to the new environment. Undoubtedly before factory's were put up an occasional white moth would be born and quickly eaten becasue it stood out.

And that's my point on saving endangered species, we were endangering those moths we didn't notice or care and through the random chance of natural mutation now we don't need to save them.

And bobby_cat what does it matter what reason the dinosaur's died out? (There's new evidence to suggest it wasn't a meteor) they didn't do anything to artificially alter they're environment and they were still wiped out. We on the other hand test and strategize and find solutions, a new ice age might kill us but we have a better chance than the dinosaur's did.

Eventually of course the sun will start to die and we will first freeze to death then be sucked into a black hole, so now that we've risen above the tyranny of nature, we have to be able to get off planet and stay away.

f*** other animals they're not as good as us, we are the pinnacle of evolution not beetles, us. We have brains, we have hands we have the ability to make tools to deal with whatever shortcoming we have in an ever changing environment. The best winning combination.
And if you think animals have the same or more right than you to live, then you should kill yourself right now. No matter what you do, you will be contributing to the death of thousands of animals every year.

Grimshaw wrote:
Okay we can go back on thread now, though i dont really know what that is......

I think the thread is 'latch on to any idea or statement floating by and voice your opinion'.

I realize that's not how evolution works I was just trying to say that ape's minds not bodies have evolved. They are super intelligent and will take us over.

Jean Eugene Roberts wrote:That's not how evolution works. Apes don't slowly transform, their children will have random mutations at some point or another and if this mutation means they can live longer through avoiding predators then it gets passed on, if it gives them a disadvantage they die out faster.

There are random mutations all the time with all animals, plants and insects but in the case of humans the mutations don't give us advantage or disadvantage because society looks after us. A man born with no right leg won't have to worry about predictors or not being able to hunt, they'll be given a prosthetic leg. And will be able to get practically any job they want to feed themselves and they're family.

I think that's quite well known.

Jean Eugene Roberts wrote:And bobby_cat what does it matter what reason the dinosaur's died out?

I didn't say it mattered JER, I said you can't compare the fate of dinosaurs as a result of an environmental change about which they had no control, to what we are knowingly doing to the environment. The only similarity is how it all ends. Some have suggested in this thread "who cares? because we're going to die anyway"... that is ridiculous.

It's not about dinosaurs, animals or rain forests, it's about what kind of world you want YOUR kid's, and YOUR grandchildren to grow up in? Ask yourself that question and if the best you can come up with is "who cares?" then with all due respect...

But that's my point I'm sure your grandparents or great-grandparents didn't want you living in a godless country where church attendance wasn't mandatory, pornography was free and black people could live next door to you.

They may not have known you but I'm sure they would have wanted what they thought was 'best' for you.

Do you care?

flashman wrote:Gotta say I'm with B0bby_CaT on this one....

If you're saying that one person can't make a difference that's simply untrue. In most human endeavor the reverse is true..... it's usually 'one' person that does indeed make the difference. Might not be me, might not be you.... but it will, eventually, be somebody!!

People are never inspired by committee's or governments. People are inspired by individuals and the ideas they passionately believe in. And passion is a much stronger emotion that apathy.... and it's catching..


"A journey of a thousand miles begins with one small step"
(old chinese proverb)

And that's a whole post without me once mentioning the Ants.... doh!!

Well you said it. People are inspired by ideas. All the greats in the history were beside having a special charisma and character had some strong ideas behind them who could inspire people to do that. It was not the simple soldier who won the war (though he contributet everything he had to achieve it - often his won life) it was Napoleon. It was not because of their inherent hate for jews and others that in nazi germany many people next door suddenly became nazis - it was because of Hitler who had a whole ideology behind him.

And today we dont have this kind of leaders. Some believe green party is one but we both know what it is - its a regular party painted green.

And there are certanly not very much individuals who inspire people to change.
So what i want to say is basically we all feel guilty today because of environmental issues. and we have found ways to kill that guilt by doing "the right things" to "protect" the environment. But we dont change the lifestyle which really damages it. Its not that i throw my plastic trash together with the biological that kills the species. its the cars, the coal energy stations, the cheical garbage that is being disposed in earth or sea, eroding the ainforest etc. you probably can come up with more examples.

So yeah one individual can change something but only when the majority is doing the same thing and wishes the same thing bad enough. But as long as its single individuals doing something good and the industry and governments do bad guess who wins?

greets

----

And Bobby...

i dont say that because a meteor could finish us of. stop putting words in my mouth and twisting them please. If you cant understand what i mean pls dont bother answering to that.

oh and to answer your question...by gazing in a crystall ball!

memorire wrote:And Bobby...

i dont say that because a meteor could finish us of. stop putting words in my mouth and twisting them please. If you cant understand what i mean pls dont bother answering to that.

No need for nit picking, we know what you're saying and it's clear what you meant... Your point was simply, natural disasters happen, so what we do to the environment is no big deal. I believe that is a naive comment.

memorire wrote:oh and to answer your question...by gazing in a crystall ball!

Seems you are talking about my suggestion corporations such as Nike, adidas, Reebok, Billabong etc have a positive impact on China's environment... I can 100% without reservation assure you these corporates are now having an overwhelmingly positive impact on the standard of living AND environment in areas of China where they are active. I can tell you this first hand with direct experience.

It's OK to be cynical, but you are dead wrong.

Jean Eugene Roberts wrote:But that's my point I'm sure your grandparents or great-grandparents didn't want you living in a godless country where church attendance wasn't mandatory, pornography was free and black people could live next door to you.

They may not have known you but I'm sure they would have wanted what they thought was 'best' for you.

Do you care?

You're sure my grand parents didn't want black people to live next to me??? where the hell did that come from? sorry mate, you're an idiot.

I think Jean's extremely clumsy attempt at trying to point out that a lot of people of that age may be a little less racially tolerant proves that one should never discuss these things on a forum.

Especially when all sides are especially pedantic.

Mass debate elsewhere i say. Or stop trying to "win". Just discuss sensibly.

More to the point, TM's policy is to not descend to personal criticism so we either lighten up or see the thread locked.