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Ill be honest, the issue here isnt about him using my routine, the main issue here is that he came to me and asked to use my old tag line "Mark Waddington - The Teenage Trickster". I said no, based on the fact that it shows no level of creativity from his side. I told him he had to go and be original, because you wont get anywhere by ripping other people off. To this, I got a response to the effect of him saying he doesnt care if I gave him permission or not, he was going to do what he wanted. I told him to think about the ethics of it to which I got the response "I didnt ask you because of ethics".

By me saying no, I am trying to do him a favor, by encoraging him to be original. When I was much younger (13 or 14) I did a competition and used a Wayne Dobson routine. I didnt win the competition, the reason being because I had used Dobsons routine. At that point I realised that you cant make a success by copying. I dont copy anyones routine, I may see an idea and play with it till it becomes my own routine, only at that point will I start to use it.

I dont care anymore to be honest, Ive said my piece, and I have exposed him as being a thief. Hopefully it will be a wake-up call to him which makes him realise that he cant go round stealing other peoples stuff.

I dont want to say much more on the matter other than I appologize for the childish undertones of my original post, but I was very upset and thought the only way to combat it would be to expose it.

I am a very mature person by nature, but when you discover somebody is stealing what you use to make your living, even down to your tagline, it hurts.


Mark

Then you're not leaving us Mark?

If that's the case then I'm pleased - you've been around here longer than me

No, im not leaving. It was more of a knee jerk reaction - I seem to be doing it quite a lot recently. I cant judge a full community based on the actions of one person!!

just because something "used to" happen, doesnt mean that you have to accept it...things dont have to stay the same, right?

anyway - i just googled teenage trickster - you know what that illiterative name is most attributed to? a guy with autism who conned an airline into thinking he was a pilot...

kinda makes you think huh...

oh and one search result for this thread...in which case, i shall mention that i have a new book out in about a month's time...available at lulu.com soon...

Glad to hear you're staying with us, Mark. You've made the right decision.

Glad you're staying, Mark.

You might have overreacted a bit, but I think you had every right to be annoyed. I also think you did exactly the right thing in encouraging crozboz to be original. Shame the lesson was lost.

After quite a bit of thinking, ive decided the reason why I dont use the title and the routines anymore is because they are c*** (not the best) anyway...


Your welcome to them in that case Crosbie...

I am glad that young Waddington feels better about the matter. It will be good practice for him since it is going to happen to him again and again and again.
There. Just trying to cheer him up.
The bit that amuses me is that every teenage trickster on this forum is now going to use that line. He will have created many, many teenage tricksters by complaining about it.
If he feels any better I personally won't be stealing the line young at heart though I may be.
And to make him feel better still I do agree with him that young Crosbie is a thieving little brat. No doubt he will do well in life.

As bad as it is that he stole from you does it not make you a little bit proud that your so famous and popular that people want to use your routine.

I wathced a couple of your videos mark and thought you are fantastic so it would have been a shame to see you go, and its not like we could tie you up to keep you here as I have seen your escapes too .

At the same time we have to be careful on what we class theiving as there are only so many things you can do (royal road to card magic opening passage describes it best I do believe) fair enough do not mimick a whole routine but with certain tricks such as a normal sized ID, there are only slight patter variations but the trick happens the same over and over.

But glad your staying you are a great magician and as you helped with me (wether or not you where aware) you will help many others to get an idea of whatm agic is all about.

Am I the only one here who doesnt actually regard this as thievery??.....

Croz asked to use a name, Mark said no (although he no longer uses it), Croz didnt use it......

Mark uses an Erdanase routine, Croz uses an Erdanese routine...... yes Mark was doing the routine first but does that mean that NO magicians should EVER use 'spectator cuts the aces' routines or the sponge ball '10 count' routines because theyre already in use by 'somebody'??????

I appreciate that you arent going to win a competition with somebody elses marketed routine, but in the lives of everyday lay-people - who cares! Its them that we mostly perform for!

RE the magic circle - isnt the JUNIOUR magic circle still part of the MAGIC CIRCLE!!! If so, then yes, you're in the magic circle (in my books)

BTW Kudos for being man enough to own up without being 'outed' Croz

I've only just read this thread and it reminded me of Bill Hick, before he died he had nearly all of his act stolen by Dennis Leary, Bill couldn't do anything about it but kept doing his routine as he always had as only he could.
Dennis was a thief but also in my eyes is less of a person for doing what he did, I can't even stand to have him on my TV anymore.

Good story of this was a trick I done before seeing enigma... I have teh spectator choose a card and show it to the audience mix it into like 20 others then I ask questions and ask him to answer in his head ..... sorry he is making contact with me at this point then say with hte powers of contact mind reading I know this is your card.

I then would say lets try with two people and I do the trick with both contacting.... ironically i was using my shoulder for pure simplicity and to allow me to move.

then for the third person I get them to choose mix then stand at the back of hte room for non contact mind reading....

I set that thing up after reading somewhere the title contact and on contact mind reading.

I then was worried after Enigma thinking great am i know going to be called a thief of my magician Idol, simply because something i thought I had concucted in my head was being used elsewhere.

End of the day to Win make your own stuff to impress use what impresses, But I do like to acredit things to people such as Corinda or who ever wrote the book I leanred an effect from (only major writers)

hope this makes sense.

In reading through this an old story popped in mind... Long ago Franz Harrary designed an effect for a Janet Jackson concert tour that was later aired on a Copperfield Tv Special. From that day forward people would compliment Franz for "that neat Copperfield trick" he did in his show and how much they loved it.

I've seen turn red over such things in that it is quite humiliating on one level but on another level it allowed him and many before him (and since) to learn how to just let go and move forward, cultivating better more mind-boggling material. I think it's one of the primary curses any creative person comes to know, regardless the field. Supposedly the great art Masters of the Renaissance had embittered tangents in public... even duels a time or two, DiVinci being one of the better known hot heads I guess. So why would it be any different in our world?

Look at Hollywood and how many Tv show & Movie themes mirror one another within a year or two of one film's success... you'll find it in the book market and clothing industry and even the world of medicine... so it's really not a "unique" scenario.

I admit, there are those I'd love to string from the ceiling by their gonads because of the things they've quite deliberately taken from me but, as many good friends have pointed out, much of that "borrowing" came as the result of my generosity and not knowing how or when to charge for ideas and understanding. I'm still terrible when it comes to such things but fortunately more and more young folk are starting to remember where they got this and that idea.

I'm glad you're sticking around Mark, you've been here for far too long a time to call it quits and the Gods know you've not gone through nearly as much hell as some of us that refuse to leave

Brother Lewis will tell you in no uncertain terms that show biz (in general) is not an industry for panzies. You have to have a bit of toughness about you and reasonably thick skin.

lozey wrote:Croz asked to use a name, Mark said no (although he no longer uses it), Croz didnt use it......

The impression I get is that Croz asked, Mark declined, Croz used it anyway. Is that not what's happened? I thought that was the core disagreement behind all this.

lozey wrote:I appreciate that you arent going to win a competition with somebody elses marketed routine, but in the lives of everyday lay-people - who cares! Its them that we mostly perform for!

See, this is something Derren Brown brings up in Absolute Magic - if I went out and performed the reformation, or Lennart Green's entire repertoire, as I'm well within my legal rights to do, no normal person would be any the wiser and would probably credit me with a great deal of skill. But professional pride must come into it somewhere, and I think the problem was less the lifting of moves - because as you say, anyone can perform Ace sandwiches and the like - and more the lifting of a routine word-for-word.

It would certainly seem silly to people who aren't magicians, but if this is something you take seriously enough to want to join the magic circle and be a working (or even career) pro, then plagiarism really isn't acceptable.

For what it's worth, I think Mark's right to be annoyed. There's absolutely nothing he can do about it, but at least he can be satisfied that he's right.