talkmagic.co.uk

I think anybody can be a magician.

Anybody can buy a gimmick and present it ok and be dubbed by a layman as a magician.I do think that what defines every magician is his personality.Bill Malone and Dynamo are both technically brilliant with a deck of cards but who's show would you go to see?Tommy Cooper isnt necessarily the best tech man but he entertains.

Sometimes I do look at certain people,ones with great charisma,good looks,great humour and charm and think to myself ''He'd make a great magician''.Having said that if the said person was to try they may struggle to bring forth that personality in their performance.It's easier said than done.

It's not until I joined TM did I really get the meaning of presentation is everything.I always thought yeah it's important kinda but tricks are what get the reaction.And they do in some cases as stand alone.But you eventually bore people to death with trick tricks tricks and no one can deny that because tricks are fecking boring on their own after a having a dose of them.

I've found that once I put more time into my presentation that people were asking me to perform instead of me asking them.My family for instance are bored to death seeing my tricks as the test dummys they are but whenever there are guests in the house I'm always begged to perform for them.I ask why and they tell me that they like to see the performance and the reactions.


That's just my opinion but I've performed in the real world,for complete strangers at gigs and other things.I think I know what I'm talking about but some may disagree.I may come across being a know it all but that's genuinly what I reckon

Vanderbelt wrote:I've seen Kolm throw a few pasteboards around over a pub table and do you know what? She's pretty good. What I love about Kolm (not that I'm declaring a romantic interest here you understand) is that she does it because she loves throwing a few pasteboards around. It's fun.

Aw, that's very kind of you to say so, thanks

I wasn't referring to you phillip, sorry if you got the idea that I was. We both (I think) agree that everyone can learn something if they want to, and that you've only failed when you've given up. It's the original posters opinions I was mostly annoyed at

I have to disagree that someone who doesn't go out there and perform can't/shouldn't give advice. I think my advice on, say, the best way to do coinvexed is just as valid as anyone else's - just because i don't perform doesn't mean I don't know. It might be wrong, but that's what makes the magic community interesting. If I'm wrong (or think im wrong) someone can and will correct me!

Jean Eugene Roberts wrote:Am I the only one getting a 'Damian Jennings' vibe from this guy?

Nope

Flood wrote:It's not until I joined TM did I really get the meaning of presentation is everything.I always thought yeah it's important kinda but tricks are what get the reaction.And they do in some cases as stand alone.But you eventually bore people to death with trick tricks tricks and no one can deny that because tricks are fecking boring on their own after a having a dose of them.

I've found that once I put more time into my presentation that people were asking me to perform instead of me asking them.My family for instance are bored to death seeing my tricks as the test dummys they are but whenever there are guests in the house I'm always begged to perform for them.I ask why and they tell me that they like to see the performance and the reactions.

You've hit the nail on the head there I reckon. There's some magicians I love to watch even if I know their performance backwards and know how the trick is done because I've seen it so many times. Simply because they have such charisma and concentrate on the performance. And I try to learn from it, even if I don't put it in practice (what can I say, I'm a sucker for knowledge)

Although I'll always encourage people to learn sleights well, even some simple ones. It opens up so many possibilities (even with a gaff)

Lord Freddie wrote:Armchair magicians or hobbyists don't bother me, but the ones that never perform, but offer advice on performance and dealing with the public, yet haven't done it themselves really annoy me.
It's like beinf given driving lessons from someone who has never got into a car before. There is one particular person that does this, and his advice re: performing for the public is really misguided. If you don't know anything about it - remain silent!

Amen to that.

At the risk of making myself an annoyance to some, I am one of those inexperienced newbies. While I take the point that my comments in some areas are not as valuable as seasoned performers I would like to say that I've found TM incredibly useful in improving my own magic. Only a couple of months ago I was limited to self working card tricks but since following up suggestions on here I'm now working on different sleights and improving well. That said, though I'd love to go pro I recognise that I have years ahead of me before that's possible.

Now I know that when we newbies sometimes make statements about performance our enthusiasm for magic can make us too strident and less measured, but from my p.o.v. I need somewhere to air my ideas and I'd much rather be told that I was talking bunkum here than make a massive c*ck-up in the real world and feel humiliated, disheartened and knocked-back. This is after all about exchanging ideas and weighing them up. While I may hold strong views on some things I don't expect them to be given equal weight to those held by more experienced people. I do however need my thoughts to be heard and debated if I am to improve substantially (in addition of course to the 10,000 hours of practise).

I would love to one day go pro, but at this stage I don't know if I will get there. I do know that like Vanderbilt's guitar-playing friend, I am getting utter enjoyment out of this. If that's all that ever happens, fine, but I still find it valuable to have a place like TM where people can guide me away from naivety into a more productive path.

In short, don't give up on us newbies. Be patient with our occasional claptrap. We do really value your knowledge and experience.

I can assure you Caligari, no matter how much good advice you get here, when you turn pro you will still get knocked back and humiliated in the real world.

Also that was a very good post.

Thank you Jean. Very kind of you.

As a fellow newbie, I completely agree with Caligari.

Hopefully I won't stay a total newbie for long, as I'm starting to put more and more effects into my lectures, and having booked three full shows in this month and the next.

I WOULD like to point out an interesting thought. Newbies to magic, those who haven't yet learned most secrets and are still being impressed by magic performances, might give an honest opinion of their feelings about effects while NOT thinking as magicians.
I know that I can't be impressed by a french drop anymore, or a coin bending, and I find that a little sad because I remember how overwhelmed I was when I saw a mentalist do those things for the first time. That also means I find it difficult sometimes to understand my audience and what's all the fuss is about. For them, it's a coin bending in front of their eyes. For me it's the most simple of s****hes.

So I'm saying that newbies can have an important view as well on magic, where they haven't lost all innocence yet - but are just about to.

I *think* that what Freddie and Tomo are talking about is when certain individuals, who have no demonstrable, practical experience with real audiences, argue with seasoned professionals about how to handle spectators.

That's quite different from inexperienced people discussing ideas and concerns. Obviously the former is a complete waste of everyone's time, while the latter is a really valuable process and resource.

Ted wrote:I *think* that what Freddie and Tomo are talking about is when certain individuals, who have no demonstrable, practical experience with real audiences, argue with seasoned professionals about how to handle spectators.

That's quite different from inexperienced people discussing ideas and concerns. Obviously the former is a complete waste of everyone's time, while the latter is a really valuable process and resource.

Yeah. What he said.

Comments and questions from newcomers are just as welcome as those from the most experienced who were, one time or another, new to magic themselves. I’d also stick my neck out and say that comments (aka feedback) from the specs are also of value as they may see things which the magicians assume they don’t see. Magician’s guilt has an opposing and balancing aspect i.e. the assumption that you got away with something when you didn’t!

What annoys the folks here and elsewhere is when people who have no real experience try to BS their way into discussions pretending they know what they’re talking about and telling others how and what to do. Newcomers asking questions, even those which seem most obvious, will always be welcome as not only does it help spread the knowledge, it also reminds the experienced folks of the basics and gives them a chance to revisit the bedrock of our art. Its also very good to hear that newcomers are developing from their initial tentative forays, they could easily be the future stars of magic – just remember us when you’re rich and famous, OK?!!

I attend the local SciBar lectures every month and they have two very good rules: if you want to ask a question that seems so obvious that everyone but you will know the answer, ask it. If you think your question is so subtle that no one in the room will know the answer, ask it.

Ted, Tomo and Phillip and Mandrake fully understand what I am getting at.

To reiterate: Someone who is a non-performing, magic hobbyist has valid comments to make regarding technique, history etc as these are areas where, through study, they have some expertise in.

Performing for the public is a far different matter than showing a few tricks at Aunty Vera's birthday party.

When you are out there doing it, there are situations you will come across (and often do) that can't be prempted and the advice from people who have been there and done it can prepare you for things you would least expect.

There is one particular individual, whom I shan't name, that produces manuscripts of routines, yet is not a performer. Sometimes its learning the hard way that routines can be honed to perfection. If something isn't given a trial run it will be full of inconsistencies. The same person also pops up on forums telling regular performers what they are doing wrong dispensing advice on approaching people, audience management etc and delivers it with such a degree of arrogance and condesension that some people may think he's some kind of authority. You don't get real world experience in front of a laptop. Those are the kind of people that infuriate me.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone doing magic badly. Even professionally, for money

Disagree with this totally. If you perform bad magic, you should stop. It's totally dishonest to say you're at a certain skill level, to label yourself as a magician, and then take money off people for a substandard service.

I would even go as far to say that if you perform bad magic, you shouldn't even do so to your friends and family - You should work on your routines until you have them perfected, routined, you can do them in your sleep.
We all know magic is on one of the lower rungs of the performing arts, and we all know there are terrible cliches which I hope don't apply to most magicians, but there are still people who scoff at magic. I perform professional close up magic, and some people don't 'get it', which is fine, but bad magic damages the art, and a bad encounter can stick with people for a long time. How many times have you heard people say, 'oh I saw a magician once, he wasn't very good, I don't really like magic.'
Please can we stop insulting, embaressing and challenging our audiences. We are there to entertain, not belittle them.

As for learning magic. Yes, I think anyone can learn magic, but I don't think you can pick up a packet trick and call yourself a magician, you absoulutely shouldn't infact. You should call yourself someone who can do a packet trick and is a fan of magic. Learn this - Magic is hard, infact it's really really difficult, watch Jeff McBride (in my opinion, easily in the top five magicians worldwide) - watch him perform, and you will see he didn't just pick up the trick and do it, but he's thought about a performance, a script, how to move, a reason for the magic, he's thinking artistically, creatively, which is so far from doing just the mechanics of the trick. He has put A LOT of work into just a short performance.

Maybe some peole are more inclined to work hard, maybe they are more creatively minded, which is fine, but anyone can learn all this if they want to, but you need to ask people -
Hey, I don't know about lighting... where can I learn about it?
What should I be thinking about for my script, etc etc?
If you get something wrong, then try again... but don't just settle for being ok. Someone once told me, 'never perfect anything, always aim to improve it each time.'

I think that's what this forum is for, helping everyone improve their own magic, and the art of magic, whether they are amatuer, professional or somewhere in between.

Let's push magic forward. No bad magic, please.

Ed.