talkmagic.co.uk

Why do we here on this board and others assume that anyone
wanting to be a magician can be one? It seems like just in
our art, we foster such a ludicrous idea. If we were
instead dancers or singers, we would quickly filter out those
without talent pointing them to some other vocation or service.

So why do we encourage those who are obviously uninterested in working
at our craft? The secret collectors, who want nothing more than
to know how something is done? Why do we give false hope to those
who just don't get it? I can't play the piano and know that because
although interested, I suck at it plain and simple. My teachers have
said so and those who have heard me play agree. Those who would have
continued to encourage me to play would have been wasting my time.

Yet that is exactly what we do with magic. We encourage those without
talent to continue. Why? Is it to have more amateurs out there making
the pros look good? Is it because deep inside we're sadists wanting
to cause pain. Why not be honest and hopefully lead one to something they can be good at?

I just don't get? Maybe some of you do, and can explain it to me?

With practice I could learn to dance or play piano or paint. I choose to practice magic.

[quote="user24"]With practice I could learn to dance or play piano or paint. I choose to practice magic.[/quote]

I'm not saying this for sure as I don't know you and you may have an affinity towards the arts, but I think it also could well just be an illusion?

Eh, I make no claim to being a prodigy or anything, I only started learning in September-ish. But you seem to be suggesting that you're either born with it or you should give up, which seems an utterly indefensible position to me.

[quote="user24"]Eh, I make no claim to being a prodigy or anything, I only started learning in September-ish. But you seem to be suggesting that you're either born with it or you should give up, which seems an utterly indefensible position to me.[/quote]

Well again having never seen you or your act, I will just wish you well.

Why does this matter?

It's nothing to do with sadism. We are talking about magic, not torturing them. They might find it enjoyable, whether or not they have an aptitude for it.

If someone wants to learn, they can learn.
If they want to learn in a different way, they can.

Who are we to say it is wrong or a problem?

It depends on which theory you subscribe to.

I'm of the opinion that anyone can do anything, they just have to apply themselves. I play guitar, I'm learning the piano, I practise card magic, I make short films, I make albums, I'm a Dad, I'm studying Psychology.

Should I just select one of these things to be good at? Surely I can spread my time over these things and enjoy my life? I like being busy, I like being snowed under, and I like different things for different reasons.

To me its a cop out if you try something, realise you can't do it straight away then just reject it as something you need to be born to do. If you work hard enough at things, they become possible. There will be people who are more naturally suited to performing magic than others, but it doesn't mean they should be the only ones doing it.

There are so many working pro's on the boards I guess sometimes it's easy to forget that magic is also a hobby... are you suggesting that anyone who isn't going to make a living performing shouldn't pursue their hobby? I guess all the writers, manufacturers and publishers of magic should prepare to go out of business...

I lthink your point has some validity, jd.

I don't agree with your view on the motives. I think some magicians enjoy their hobby (or career) so much that they think everyone should love it as much as they do, and are therefore keen to encourage others to join in.

There is a bit of a difference between magic and many other performance arts; it is possible to do tricks with little or no technical ability. You can buy gimmicked props, or perform self-workers. Almost anybody can do a magic trick. What some people lack is the ability to perform magic well. An adequate singer can sound good with Auto-Tune. An adequate magician with great tricks is still just an adequate magician.

User24 - I think you are missing the point. The question is not whether you could learn to play the piano, or to paint, but whether someone who had no aptitude in those areas should even try to learn.

Grimshaw - You might just be a naturally talented person, like me. However, if you ever heard my father sing, you would understand that some skills simply cannot be acquired by some people. Ever seen that episode of Friends where Monica's millionaire boyfriend is determined that he's going to win the UFC? By the way, being a Dad takes no skill at all. Being a good Dad takes loads.

DaveM - Have you ever seen the "hopeless" auditions for talent show programmes? Do you think their relatives were doing them a favour in telling them they were good, or would a reality check have been much better?

Having said that, I really can't see why we can't just let people get on and enjoy magic. If they want to spend lots of money and time on a hobby they don't do well, but they have fun with it, let them. It's not like they are having a crack at neurosurgery when they don't know what they are doing.

"art is just good. People doing bad shows is better than people doing good murders and rapes. Art means people are celebrating being alive, even if they do it with Hippity Hop Rabbits."

-Teller

sleightlycrazy wrote:"art is just good. People doing bad shows is better than people doing good murders and rapes. Art means people are celebrating being alive, even if they do it with Hippity Hop Rabbits."

-Teller

That's brilliant.

Love that Teller quote.

But would it be better for a talented pianist to play the piano, instead of doing a toe-curling version of Hippity-Hop Rabbits? In your answer, please assume this person is unlikely to choose rape and murder as an alternative.

(I am not actually demanding an answer, more pointing out a weakness is Teller's point in the context of the initial post.)

EDIT: By the way, my answer is still "If they are having fun, why not?"

Part-Timer wrote:What some people lack is the ability to perform magic well.

Yes, I agree - often it's the presentation that not everyone can master (myself humbly included at the moment!)

Part-Timer wrote:User24 - I think you are missing the point. The question is not whether you could learn to play the piano, or to paint, but whether someone who had no aptitude in those areas should even try to learn.

I'm just a little surprised that people are suggesting that 'those with no aptitude' shouldn't try to learn... especially in an area where there is very little in the way of natural (dis)advantage. If you want to be a singer, it's difficult without a good voice. If you want to be a jockey but weigh 22stone then pretty much forget it. But magic? Literally any human could learn it.

I'm struggling to think what you can mean by 'no aptitude'? Seems to me that 'no aptitude' can't mean anything but 'not enough practice'.

Part-Timer wrote:Having said that, I really can't see why we can't just let people get on and enjoy magic. If they want to spend lots of money and time on a hobby they don't do well, but they have fun with it, let them.

indeed

Personally, I think magic calls upon a diverse enough skill set that most people can be, at the very least, competent in some aspect of magic. A person who is not technically creative may be able to write wonderful presentations for classic tricks. Someone who can't do the pass or palm a card may have a brilliant mind for method design and misdirection. Yet another person who suffers from stage fright and lacks ideas and subtext in magic may be a fantastic manipulator. And so on and so forth.

To find out exactly what strengths you have in something like magic, you just have to work on it. Read a lot, practice a lot, perform a lot. While there are prodigies, it is rare that one can simply dismiss a newbie right off the bat as having nothing to contribute. People can work on their weaknesses and play to their strengths and become excellent magicians, provided they have the passion and put in the effort. Because of this, I believe we should support newbies.

At least until they become one of these guys:

http://www.christianmagician.org/

People with no aptitude or talent are welcome to come and try anything. Its part of the fun of life.

But there is a vast difference between an amateur annoying strangers in a pub with a poor card trick, and a working pro. What bugs me is when the amateurs are so strident with their opinions, and think that what they do equates with what we do. It doesn't.

I love cooking. I can prepare a variety of tasty meals. But that doesn't entitle me to call myself a chef.