talkmagic.co.uk

Jean Eugene Roberts wrote:According to Derren, he came from the same world.

I'm not sure that's the greatest endorsement. While I've enjoyed many of his series I think one Derren Brown is enough.

Jobasha wrote:
I'm not sure that's the greatest endorsement. While I've enjoyed many of his series I think one Derren Brown is enough.

HA!

Jean Eugene Roberts wrote:Seriously that's your response? Your going on the attack straight away?

Firstly not everyone knows that faith healers are conmen otherwise they wouldn't be successful. Secondly the tooth fairy is nothing like faith healers and you know it, (for one thing the tooth fairy is real, and she usually gives money rather than takes it). Thirdly I allready knew about faith healers but I didn't know about the people who promise that god will give you more money if you donate to them. Finally what I found absolutely fantastic about this T.V special was that the majority of people featured who were trying to bring faith healers down were christians and believes. Blowing a hole in the bullsh*t 'moderate's allow extremists to exist' argument anti-theist's like to throw around.

He was able to attack some of the worst kind of conmen without ever attacking faith or religion, and that made it brilliant.

Yep, that's my response. Watched it, found it predictable and also patronising. Some pockets in the US seem to go for this kind of thing but you don't get this kind of thing in the UK. Derren seems to think he's going to change the world with all this, but evangelists were exposed in the 1980's (see Jimmy Swaggart) but that didn't stop the believers following them. It won't make a jot of a difference. Derren was a thrilling entertainer but now comes across as a poor man's Louis Theroux. With a beard.

It seems that Christianity is an easy target as Penn and Teller, Derren etc are all lining up to have a pop and preach to the converted. The only people that lap these kinds of things up are non-believers anyway. He won't stop the Christians believing.

Now, if he had the balls to tackle Islam, that would be interesting. But then again, he gets no repercussions with Christians and his Dawkins swallowing fan-boys will lap it all up anyway.

I found the programme very interesting, & "Entertaining".

I would however like to see a programme where Derren is completely blown away by something that he absolutely cannot explain. I'm sure that there is a lot that goes on in this small world of ours that cannot be explained away so easily.

I just feel that if he ever were to encounter something "unexplainable", he would go into denial!!

Houdini exposed the fraudulant Mediums, but I understand that he HOPED that the ones that couldn't be explained away, were the real deal, he WANTED to believe, by all accounts.

I just feel that perhaps Derren is missing out on something............

I can understand wanting to expose something that exploits people for their hard earned money, but wasn't the MAKING of the programme doing just the same thing? (yet another money making machine)

This is a very interesting subject.

I actually want to believe in something miraculous, maybe it is because I WANT to believe, that I have seen miraculous things, maybe I wouldn't have, if I DIDN'T WANT TO.........

Mike Danata

Lord Freddie wrote: Some pockets in the US seem to go for this kind of thing but you don't get this kind of thing in the UK. .

Saddly this sort of thing does go on in this country. Somje of these preachers do tours and put on events at places like the NEC.

I liked the line about having to be a hypocrite to expose the truth. I think Derren Brown's angle seems to be more of a presenter now, and less of a showman in the glare of the limelight (in terms of TV specials), which I think works, as he's now a household name (and has been for a while). So rather than relying on controversial publicity stunts, taking the 12th chapter of 13 Steps To Mentalism to heart, it's good that the public are likely to watch it as they are intrigued by him.

I'd imagine in the same way every kid was copying the Balducci levitation popularised by David Blaine, when that was big and fresh, I'd imagine they'll be lots of impromptu faith healing happening with trainers up and down some playgrounds. There was certainly an urban "street magic" feel when Nathan approached strangers.

I still feel that Nathan, whilst I felt out of the four I knew he would be selected, didn't give the greatest performance, in terms of delivery. Yeah, commendable, but can't help feel a sense that a grand sense of theatre and occasion wasn't quite there. Like an earlier post, I too would have liked a post show reflection on Nathan, for some release of an emotional crescendo, a bit like that Trick Of The Mind episode where the dude momentarily crumbles after seemingly becoming a sinister puppet, and the human element, and its exploration was what I was more interested in.

I can understand why Derren Brown would be interested in this area, and the stuff about James Randi was quite interesting, and a bit similar to the debunking of psychics, which has been discussed in other threads. Good job it wasn't an expose into the secret world of cold reading!

Sorry freddie but once again.
He didn't attack christianity or any religion.
He showed evidence contrary to the idea that religion is bad.
He drew a massive distinction between religion/faith, and the faith healers.

I want to show this documentary to an anti-thiest, dawking fanboy friend of mine and I honestly think he'll hate it because it challenges HIS beliefs.

Also, and this isn't an attack on you, but I think your incorrectly assuming that everyone knows what you know and thinks like you do. He knows he won't change the world but he might stop some people both here and abroad from falling for this stuff.
If you find the show boring that's fine (obviously) but don't think that what he's done here won't help some people.

Can everyone please remember. He didn't attack religion, or even faith healers.

All he said was,
How do you spot a fraudulent faith healer?
They will charge you money.

danata wrote:
I can understand wanting to expose something that exploits people for their hard earned money, but wasn't the MAKING of the programme doing just the same thing? (yet another money making machine)

No. His wasn't criticising people for making money.

Jean Eugene Roberts wrote:

danata wrote:
I can understand wanting to expose something that exploits people for their hard earned money, but wasn't the MAKING of the programme doing just the same thing? (yet another money making machine)

No. His wasn't criticising people for making money.

Wasn't it about "Making money from DECEPTION?"

I felt that there was a lot of "Deception" in the making of the programme!

Mike Danata

No deception in itself was not what was being criticised, otherwise all magicians would be guilty.
It's like if a doctor promised a cancer patient a cure, charged him through the nose for it, gave him morphine and told him to stop taking chemo.

Don't forget the clear and driving premise of the programme, stated right at the start: these people have robbed the terminally ill of the time they would have had to properly say goodbye. They did it deliberately and they knew they were doing it. They have deliberately conned the dying. They are scum and they deserve all they get.

Whilst I agree these people need to be dealt with in the harshest possible way. My views on who does it have changed, I wonder why Magicians/Mentalist's feel the need to be the ones to challenge phony psychics. I know it's an allied art but surely it would be more beneficial if genuine authoritys were involved in this frankly illegal practice rather than Magicians exposing everything. Like others have pointed out is rather inefficient. I'd love to hear peoples thoughts on why we think it's our problem because I really don't see it as 'our' battle.

phillipnorthfield wrote:Whilst I agree these people need to be dealt with in the harshest possible way. My views on who does it have changed, I wonder why Magicians/Mentalist's feel the need to be the ones to challenge phony psychics. I know it's an allied art but surely it would be more beneficial if genuine authoritys were involved in this frankly illegal practice rather than Magicians exposing everything. Like others have pointed out is rather inefficient. I'd love to hear peoples thoughts on why we think it's our problem because I really don't see it as 'our' battle.

A similar reason to why we should be involved in testing psychic claims: there is trickery involved, and people experienced in detecting deception should be at the forefront of the response. Scientists might get baffled by how the faith healers know what they ostensibly learn from God, but a magician would have working knowledge of mediumistic tricks (impression devices, billet work, etc.) enough to solve the "mystery". I agree that the authorities should be involved more after it is clear and confirmed that trickery is afoot, but magicians certainly have their place against frauds.

Just to stir up some thought/trouble, what would you guys think if the faith healers left their marks genuinely feeling better about themselves and their health?

Tomo wrote:Don't forget the clear and driving premise of the programme, stated right at the start: these people have robbed the terminally ill of the time they would have had to properly say goodbye. They did it deliberately and they knew they were doing it. They have deliberately conned the dying. They are scum and they deserve all they get.

The clear & driving premise of the programme, is to make GOOD TELEVISION full stop (in my opinion) & of course it succeeded brilliantly!

If it was really a Full On Campaign against the charlatans, then it it would not be the end of it at the conclusion of the programme, the campaign would be stepped up, which of course it won't be..................

The programme makers will no doubt move on to the next "Subject Matter"..........

Mike Danata

I thought it was great. I was all set to hate it on the strength of Derren's last few shows...The Events have all but been wiped from my mind, never mind Hero at Cruising Altitude.

I think they did a great thing in picking that Nathan fellow, who was not afraid to say when he felt put upon, and I also think he had the smarmy smile of a preacher out for your cash too.

You guys can argue about the ethics behind it all you like, fundamentally it was good television, which is what Channel 4 pay Derren to create.