talkmagic.co.uk

As a follow up to Seige's post, mentalism areas traditionally attract, shall we say, the more, um, "out there" fringe when they're unrestricted. The mentalism area on TM is for workmanlike discussions of methods and techniques being developed by the posters there.

I would add to this, that although the trend these days is to explain mentalism using NLP or even as a deceptive mystery, there are still those who claim to have "supernatural mental powers", or at least blur the lines a bit to allow people to believe as much.

Whilst some might see this as a bit of an old fashioned presentation or a bit passe, we have to respect their right to perform how they like and to make a living from it. This involves not only being careful about revealing the workings of an effect, but revealing that there even are "workings"!
We all know card magic is sleight of hand. So whilst we don't give secrets out, we're not too worried about people browsing the forum and finding that there is a "secret" to performing an amazing card trick, but it may be expensive and will also involve practice.
Many mentalists may well not take kindly to regular Joes being able to see that the miracle of hidden suggestion or thought reading they witnessed the other night can be bought for £70 online...

I perform varying mental effects, but don't class myself as a mentalist - whether I should be doing "mental magic" is another debate all together! But I respect the right of the mentalists to keep things a little closer to their chest than the magicians, purely because of what's a stake - if one coin trick gets exposed, learn another, if someone exposes a mentalist concept it spreads to taint the "credibility" of the lot.

And no, I don't have access either, but there we go. Don't sweat it.

This has been a most interesting read...

I do love how certain folk believe it was created so that "I" wouldn't have to deal with those I don't exactly agree with... a very wrong observation I'll add, but funny (in my mind) how some would assume such.

Gregg Arce recently made a comment that goes along these lines...a magician sees a mentalist do a bit and asks himself how he could fit that into his show... the Mentalist on the other hand is not known for trying to figure how to justify putting a coin matrix or cups & balls into what he does... In this we find one of the greatest reasons why a mentalism section needs to be segregated from the rest of the lookilu types... I dare say that this same logic, though slightly altered, supports why the deeper auspices of card and coin work shouldn't be discussed outside those elements that know and work with that particular specialty... especially when you consider the fact that so few in today's world mind their own business and focus on their thing... feeling it "their right" to be in the loop no matter what.

I know that this is not a "new" condition in the world of magic... I was told 30 years ago the IBM stood for I Bother Magicians in that every 12 year old belonged and they all thought it a backstage pass to any magic show coming to town (and the right to tinker with a magician's props)... sorry, but if you paid $15,000.00 for a device that's in YOUR SHOW no one else has the right to F*& with it! Same thing here... I/WE put in the hard work and money to learn or even develop these specialty bits e.g. they are ours and not something the everyday magic buff has a need or right to know about... the opposite is true as well, I don't "need" to know about the how and why of most magic tricks that are out there... which is why I avoid them for the most part and just MIND MY OWN BUSINESS.

Now comes the real secret to this elitist side of things...

If you prove yourself in general conversation and prove your knowledge base, experience and the fact that you're not just another Cafe or E type junkie, chances are very strong you'd get invited into these more "closed" areas of the forum much quicker than those that whine, beg and complain. I've found that this is how I tend to get invited into some of the major on line forums that most of you have never even heard of, that are exclusive to my particular field of work (though Dr. Todd tends to be screaming to the world, that there are such sites out there, encouraging all to join vs. relishing the tranquility of not having to deal with the more "limited" thinkers in life.)

There is a fellowship for members of the Bizarrists world to which I'm very much associated and yet, I've never been invited into this very exclusive camp even though I'm known by most of its members, even respected by the majority of them. I do see it as an elitist thing nor do I feel that I'm being left out to the proverbial loop in that I really am not... I just don't have my decoder ring and membership card nor do I head to the UK every year to hold hands and sing in this or that graveyard or haunted manor. I could say the same of the PEA but until recently I doubt that my participation in such a group would have proven practical or even sane on my part. The moral of this story being that we don't have to belong to everything that's out there and just because we share similar thinking does not mean that group is obliged to let us in nor does it mean that we have an automatic "right" to belong.

nicely said, but do you think that magic and mentalism can't go together at all?

samstorey wrote:nicely said, but do you think that magic and mentalism can't go together at all?

Course they do, they're opposite sides of the same coin, but the terminology's different and so are the sleights and techniques. So, by splitting them out, just the people who are interested in mentalism per se can read the bits they're interested in, and vice versa.

Interesting discussion. I don't have much more to add; I'm not at all convinced thus far that it isn't an elitist and illogical thing, but I don't care enough about it to want to argue. Just a note to say that to avoid suspicions of elitism, you might want to be more careful with the term 'VIP'

seige wrote:Clarification:



4. Membership is exclusive, and by invitation only. There's nothing elitist about it. ...

5. ....It's just a separate community—a kind of 'VIP' room—where we can more openly discuss magic without the leechers, casual browsers, and riff-raff.

It's perfectly logical, and if you can't see that perhaps you're not ready to have access

cardza, with respect, please please don't stoop to an ostensibly good-natured insult.

It is your opinion that it is is logical, mine that I am yet to be convinced of this. To suggest that because I don't agree with you I must not be intelligent enough to be worthy of reading about mentalism is pretty snide.

Cardza wrote:There are some products out there which, if posted on the open forums (and I'm not accusing anyone), could quite easily end up in the wrong hands....

Their promises of miracles lure all and sundry in, but some of these people will be those who aren't ready for them yet; there's no special gimmicks or gaffs, no sleights or finger-flicking - just ingenious structuring, linguistics and presentational subtleties. They either dismiss them but have a mangled understanding of the workings of the effect, or attempt to perform them but aren't in a position yet where they could pull them off.

I actually think there are far, far more magicians performing effects badly than there are novice mentalists doing the same.

Many mentalism effects, as you yourself point out, sound impossible to pull off when a relative newcomer learns them, whereas that newcomer in magic can easily convince themselves that they can 'get away with' their [insert sleight here].

misterblack wrote:cardza, with respect, please please don't stoop to an ostensibly good-natured insult.

It is your opinion that it is is logical, mine that I am yet to be convinced of this. To suggest that because I don't agree with you I must not be intelligent enough to be worthy of reading about mentalism is pretty snide.

Intelligence has nothing to do with it, rather an appreciation as to why some things are better off kept out of public view. You do not seem to agree with that, ergo perhaps you are not ready to read about them. That's a perfectly valid argument - founded on a belief of mine (please note my use of the word 'perhaps') - but perfectly valid nonetheless.

If I was trying to insult you I wouldn't do it in such a roundabout way. And as it so happens I'm not because, funnily enough, I'm not that egocentric as to think of myself as superior.

Apologies if you found my post offensive, it was not intended to be.

Fair enough, it came across to me as an insult - or at least patronising - but I withdraw my accusation.

Anyway, it is precisely the 'why' in 'why some things are better kept out of the public's view' that I am trying to understand in starting this thread, I guess.

It's been categorically stated that there is no exposure in the mentalists only forum, so I remain a little puzzled.

I guess you (and others) believe that mentalism is a form of magic that in comparison to other forms is one or more of the following:

- inherently superior
- more difficult
- based on more important secrets or techniques
- dangerous?

Am I along the right lines? I just haven't come to those conclusions myself from my reading so far.

misterblack wrote:I guess you (and others) believe that mentalism is a form of magic that in comparison to other forms is one or more of the following:

- inherently superior
- more difficult
- based on more important secrets or techniques
- dangerous?

Am I along the right lines? I just haven't come to those conclusions myself from my reading so far.

Can I butt in here and say none of the above.

Mentalism attracts a lot of arguments and, well, nutters, so it's in a controlled area (as stated in the rules) where that's less likely to do so on TM. Please read my previous posts in this thread!

I've read all your posts in this thread Tomo. Your previous comment about mentalism attracting nutters/arguments I had taken as just an aside, didn't realise you were offering it as a reason for the restricted forum.

You also said the forum is where mentalists discuss methods etc openly, but then 'siege' stated that there is no discussion of methods in any restricted forum. So I guess I'm confused and will remain confused.

I will take my leave here I think, I really don't want to mire myself in a long debate. Although I did say that about four posts ago...

I don't think that mentalism is superior, but I would definitely say that (sorry Tomo) it is harder than magic because it relies so heavily on the performer's abilities.

Consider an ACR: the performance doesn't have to be that great provided it's performed with technical flare. Ideally it would be a great performance and that would further serve to enhance the effect's impact: but it's not essential, the magic is, in a sense, still there without it.

A lot of the really good mentalism is not at all like this however. The effect and performance are so entwined that without the performance, there is no effect. It relies on a very strong understanding of the principles involved, an ability to connect with your audience and skillfully and subtly weave webs of, as Max Maven would put it, 'verbal subterfuge'.

For this reason it is best kept out of public view. Mention of the principles involved too gives people a very basic understanding of some of the principles; they think they know what they are doing, but don't know the half of it and it damages the art.

If it were a performer who could respect that they may not be ready to make use of the various methodologies just yet, and appreciate that and not feel the urge to blurt them out as if they know what they're talking about, then I would have no problems with them reading the forum.

Hope that clarifies my position.

misterblack wrote:You also said the forum is where mentalists discuss methods etc openly, but then 'siege' stated that there is no discussion of methods in any restricted forum. So I guess I'm confused and will remain confused.

I think I actually said their own methods and techniques.