talkmagic.co.uk

abraxus:

Some of the points you mentioned eg. dinosaurs aren't glossed over in the Bible, most things aren't it just involves a slightly depper look.

I don't really want this thread to decend into a battle of beliefs or a religious debate but if you are interested I'll do it via PM - this is, after all a magic forum and the original question was to those WITH a faith and how it affects magic.

Yes people often seem to follow what their parents believe but just as many do not - also, it works the same for parents without a faith their familly's often do not have one - funny how people seem to think religious children are a result of religious parents but faithless children aren't a result of faithless parents.

Sadly, the proposed and long looked forward to lectures in the UK probably aren't going to happen as planned... this is due primarily to personal and health issues on my end (and believe me, I've been wanting to make that jaunt for a long time now).

I will mention that one of my more anticipated books is about to his the stands as it were, if those interested ought to get on Loren's mailing list now so they can save a bit of cash {http://www.mevproshop.com/newsletter.html} the early release price is going to be around $90.00 with regular price being around $135.00... those wanting to know more just be patient, I'll be posting on it soon.

As to the theme of this thread and how things are unfolding; I'm a firm believer that we each progress spiritually according to what we are ready to accept and move forward from. As one that supports the idea of Reincarnation I don't see how anyone could hold to a static or dogmatic cult styled tradition without eventually questioning it... even early Christianity (well into the mid-5th century) observed this line of thought before trading it in for the one-way ticket to Heaven or Hell idea it borrowed from Zoaster's traditions.

I know that what's been said in the previous few posts is very accurate when it comes to the social or osmosis mode of "getting religion" i.e. people are Christians because they live in a christian society or Moslems because they are in a predominately Islamic world, etc. I think it's criminal that young people aren't allowed to gain exposure and education into all the worlds great philosophies during their latter shool years and into college, so that they can make decisions based on what's presented or better yet (and more akin to what I've done) based on the common threads they all tend to share vs. doctrine and human opinion.

About 2,000 years ago there was a group of Elders gathered in the temple square that were simply amazed by a young boy's intuitive understanding of the scriptures and the implications set forth by the prophets of old. They challenged him to expound on the fullness of the gospel's meaning. The lad, not even into puberty yet, smiled and responded. "I can give you such things in the time a man can stand on one foot."

The old priests looked at each other with shock and surprise feeling almost insulted but then the lad spoke, "The fullness of God's Law is Love; to love the lord thy God with all the mind, heart, soul & strength and to love thy neighbor as you would love yourself."

Silence came over the learned elders as the boy cleared his throat and continued, "The rest of what is shared herein," he said, pionting to the sacred scrolls, "is but man's commentary -- men placing words and their own limited understanding into the mouth of God and the meaning of his teachings."

Interestingly this single "golden rule" can be found in all of the world's great religious traditions and philosophies bar none! The oldest recorded version of it is said to be over 5,000 years old and yet, in the course of human history in the past 5,000 years... the plethora of sacred visitors, prophets and seers that have come to this plain to remind us of this simplest and more elementary of truths... WE STILL HAVEN'T CAUGHT ONTO IT!

Makes one wonder, don't it?

Pitto - actually the orginal posting asked for feedback/discussions from people from all beliefs...

nothing i said was meant to enrage or annoy anyone truly, its only from my perspective - which is what i understood the post to be about...

my mum is christian, my dad is catholic, im lucky enough to of been brought up to decide for myself...

by the way, im not 'faithless' just 'cos im atheist, everyone has faith in something...

if i've enraged you somehow - sorry, but these are my honest opinions (which i don't apologise for!)...

I'm a Christian - paid up, practicing, active, whatever And as with Pitto, it is a huge part of my life and who I am; the biggest, probably - andso of course it will affect the magic I perform.

I suppose the biggest thing for me is making sure that in any mental magic I perform, I steer clear of things that could be seen to involve "magick". I understand that tarot cards etc. are used by plenty of magicians who want nothing more than a slightly mystic prop for a mentalism routine - something to set the mood - but it's important for me to make it clear that any trick I perform is just that: a trick. And whilst I'm happy to spin a bit of bull about memory patterns or transmitting brainwaves, things that stray into eastern religious/pagan principles or medium/clairvoyant stuff is a no for me.

I fully understand why many magicians don't have a set "faith" - I mean, we know how easy it is to perform illusions and fool the crowd, right?! But various experiences have convinced me of the validity of my faith, and it just makes sense to me, in terms of what I see in the world.

Pitto wrote:Another point you made is the problems religion has caused - people throughout history who have started terror campaigns and wars in the name of "faith/religion" were, in fact, not living how 99% of faiths teach (including those you mentioned).

No I am not offended by what you said

Chris

That's just the point I was trying to make, I have no problem at all with the religions themselves, their content or their practice. What disillusioned me about the whole process was the number of attrocities commited in the name of religion by those who saught to bend it to their own means. I then found it hard to put any faith into a deity who allowed such corruption to be carried out with, as anyone not familiar with the religion might see it, his full consent.

I'm glad not to have offended!

I was chatting with someone a while ago who was quite aggressively atheist. I asked him to describe the god he didn't believe in. Once he'd finished - I agreed with him. I didn't believe in that god either..

I was a Christian until about a year ago. I still don't know to this day what prompted me to question my faith, but nevertheless I did. I had never truly questioned my beliefs. By this I don't mean to just ask questions, but rather consider the possibility that whoever taught me the Christian stories was in fact wrong and as such so was I - and as a result I found that my beliefs were flawed and subject to circular logic and assumptions.

I realised that in all theological debates I had ever had I found myself believing in a system which I couldn't really defend. Whenever it got onto issues of evil etc, I found myself just turning a blind eye (or deaf ear) to what was being said, ignoring all the evidence which points to no God, and continuing to blindly follow my faith.

As soon as I took 10 minutes to truly think that maybe I was wrong, all the problems that had been pointed out to me suddenly made sense, and came flooding back. I found my beliefs did not fit with the world we live in, and I was making assumptions on behalf of God when there was no reason to be making them.

As a result, I found myself leaving religion behind, and have actually found myself to be in a happier place, more content with what I have now - and not what was promised to me by others.

abraxus wrote:if i've enraged you somehow - sorry, but these are my honest opinions (which i don't apologise for!)...

Abraxus,
I do not think Pitto sounded enraged; I think others may be projecting a little.

NickJ,
With your responsibility as a moderator; don't you think you should be stating your comments in another forum. There are answers to the comments you have made but I do not think this topic was posted to offend people or to make this into some religious debate.

soooo..

Back to magic anyone?

Actually - a while ago a group of friends and I got together one evening for Sushi and a jam session (magic jam session).
Half way through the eveing we realised that we were two Muslims, a Jew, a sort of Agnostic and me - for the purpose of this discussion you could say christian. The cool thing was that it didn't matter - magic brought us together

...yeah, there's a very good effect in R. Shane's Automata (well there's alot of great effects in it) but there's one thats purely about Religion....

in fact, i'll try and review the book for next week - its genius...all self-working...but please dont let that put you off...

I was in no way enraged and I appologise if that is how what I posted read.

taneous: this will sound a bit silly but that is a REALLY great story (in all seriousness)

pitto - no need to apologise mate...theres always that risk with just the written word, its more what tone you read something back in more than what is actually written...

hmmmmm magic jam....

[If you don't want to read some personal thoughts on mortality that might upset you, please skip this post]

I think one of the most difficult things about losing your faith is coming to terms with your own mortality and place in the universe. That was the last vestage of faith to go for me. It finally went a decade ago of its own accord. It can be a terrible experience to know that life is potentially meaningless, that millions of human lives are made by mistake every year, and that one day you'll simply stop happening. Acceptance is a lot more difficult than belief, which, after all, is (or should be) a lot nicer and ultimately positive. I think that's why I tend to be preoccupied with time and with getting something worthwhile done with what time I have left .

I've got no problem with people believing whatever they like. I've met people as sure that there's a God watching them as others who are convinced aliens watch us from orbit. In fact, my lack of faith is just a belief too. It's helped me come to terms with my own mortality just as belief in everlasting life helps others to do the same. Given that at some level altruism is an illusion, banking good deeds for a place in the next life has helped a lot of the recipients of said deeds keep body and soul together a bit longer. do I perform good deeds? Yes! It makes me feel good now, and it's the right thing to do.

I think the serious problems only start when people deliberately re-model their beliefs (or allow them to be shaped) into something that objectifies and polarises their view of other groups and thereby excuses them from acting abominably against them. That's not God's work, in fact it's quite the opposite if you think about it...

costas wrote:NickJ,
With your responsibility as a moderator; don't you think you should be stating your comments in another forum. There are answers to the comments you have made but I do not think this topic was posted to offend people or to make this into some religious debate.

I don't think that my opinions or statements are in any way in conflict with my responsibities. If I was inciting an argument then I would agree and would have removed my posts by now, as it is this thread is far more calm and objective than any other on the subject that has cropped up.

I don't want to spark any debate but, since I had commented on Pitto's post I felt it only fair to elucidate my own standpoint to allow anyone reading to see where I was coming from. As I am unable to comment on Chrisitan issues within magic, and since my posts may have the potential to be interpretted as controversial I will retire from the discussion unless directly addressed.

As someone with a faith Tomo I can't see how anyone would have a problem with your post - my problem comes when people attack what I believe or me for believing - which you didn't do.