talkmagic.co.uk

Pitto wrote:As someone with a faith Tomo I can't see how anyone would have a problem with your post - my problem comes when people attack what I believe or me for believing - which you didn't do.

I don't really see what would qualify me to attack a sincerely held faith. Outside of sureties like gravity always going down and the sun coming up tomorrow, everything else is pretty much belief. Mine's no more valid than anyone's, and at the same time the most believable truth (for me) too!

After all, as the NLP lot say, we experience a model of reality, not reality itself. It's any potential finding out that our models are wrong that really frightens people. Odd thing, being a human, innit...

We've had similar threads here on TM in the past and they've usually ended up being locked or deleted as comments are taken out of context or misinterpreted.

costas wrote:NickJ,
With your responsibility as a moderator; don't you think you should be stating your comments in another forum

Just to clarify this situation, Moderators are as entitled to express personal opinion as much as anyone else here - there would be little point in Nick making comments on somewhere like MagicBunny when the topic is here on TM. The fact that we don't always comment or respond is a personal choice.

I've read through all this and I have some very strong opinions which differ from Nick's, but are shared by some, and I reckon it all boils down to tolerance of someone else's honestly held opinions and respect for their point of view. Obviously I don't agree that honestly held opinions inciting racial hatred etc are right!

nickj wrote:I hope not to have offended anyone, what I have said are merely my own feelings articulated as strongly as I feel them and I want to make clear that I have nothing but respect to those who truly follow the teachings of a religion, most of which preach kindness whatever face they have shown on a global scale through history.

I can’t see where that gives rise to any concerns.

Most faiths have a common thread running through them, in the case of the Christian version it's 'Love one another as I have loved you'. Not a word about disagreements, secularism, warfare, hatred - just love for one another. Sounds just right to me .

group hug everyone?

abraxus wrote:group hug everyone?

And a round of drinks as well !

I love this thread. It s a good conversation for people to have.

I was fortunate (In my opinion) to be brought up in a christian family but i recently had the choice whether to become an "official" member of my church. (I attend The Salvation Army)

I made this choice myself. Mum and Dad were contstantly checking with me months before right up to the day that i still wanted to commit to what i was signing up for.
Even the minister checked several times.

Although being brought up in a family shapes your belief. (like me...have gone to church from being a baby) I think we all have our own choices.
Also...the ideas about christian and magic, i agree with something said earlier.

I would not use tarot cards because although they can be used for just tricks, they are "linked" with the occult and part of my christian belief is that i dont attach myself to anything involving occult ideas.
HOWEVER - I think everyones entitled to thier belief so therefore would not want to offend or say the wrong thing to anyone who does use these type of props. I have nothing against them...just a different belief.

I would not use tarot cards because although they can be used for just tricks, they are "linked" with the occult and part of my christian belief is that i dont attach myself to anything involving occult ideas.
HOWEVER - I think everyones entitled to thier belief so therefore would not want to offend or say the wrong thing to anyone who does use these type of props. I have nothing against them...just a different belief.

Allow me to play Devil's Advocate here for a minute, my young friend (and hopefully educate you a bit)...

I would assume you go to school e.g. you know how to read, write, do math, basic science, physics and you may even have some knowledge about chemistry... correct?

Are you aware that all of these fields come directly out of occult teachings and the mystery schools of times long forgotten? Just being able to speak and understand a language other than the native tongue of your clan/family/nation used to be classified as occultic knowledge, evil and against god via the auspices of both, Catholic and Protestant sects of the christian world.

You say that you wouldn't use Tarot cards and yet, in the UK regular Playing Cards tend to be used more for divination type work than a Tarot deck.

I don't want to make you feel "wrong" about your religious beliefs, but I do want to encourage you to open your mind a bit and ask questions... move forward in your life and learn so that you are not "controlled" through the manipulative aspects of guilt, ignorance, and superstition. Contrary to biblical teaching Ignorance is NOT bliss (if that were true we'd know a world of peace right now vs. the chaos now surrounding us). Too, if you look at the heroes of the bible, especially the old testiment but even Jesus raised his voice to God looking for anwers... the older and more noted prophets like David, Daniel, Abraham, etc all cursed at god and yelled at him in horrid rants from time to time -- questioning the things God would have them do. But in these acts, they became filled with greatness through knowledge and understanding.

I know you are comfy in your world right now, it's what you know. But you are young and there will come a point in your life that you will be compelled to ask questions. Don't let these things bring upon you loss and distance but rather, let them drive you towards finding the answers... including the ones you don't want to hear, know or accept (though you will know in your heart, they are true.)

This is the way of the spiritual being vs. those that robotically adhere to a religious idea. It is something I felt I had to say...

I can't speak for Tom but I know him quite well and I think what he meant was the modern day connections with things like Tarot cards would not be helpful for someone who was trying to live as a good example of the Christian faith.

What I mean, simpley, is, no one connects Chemistry etc with the Occult so any "on lookers", if you will, wouldn't make the connection that they would with Tarot cards.

And you are right Craig and make some excellent point IMHO we should ask questions

Mandrake wrote:Just to clarify this situation, Moderators are as entitled to express personal opinion as much as anyone else here - there would be little point in Nick making comments on somewhere like MagicBunny when the topic is here on TM. The fact that we don't always comment or respond is a personal choice.

Of course moderators are and should be entitled to express their personal opinion, which is relevant to the topic. But when I read the following comments made by Nick:

nickj wrote: I am not religious and I feel that, on a global scale at least, organised religion has been responsible for far more damage than it has good. Chrisitans were slaughtering Muslims and vice versa and everyone was picking on the Jews centuries ago and it's carried on in the same vein ever since. So many major conflicts have had a religous tension somewhere in the causes that I find it very hard to see the more positive side.

I personally felt that these statements had the serious potential to take this topic into another place (especially if someone decided to challenge them), and I thought if Nick took offence to Pitto’s comments then surely he could have anticipated that people could easily take offence to his own. So that Nick can clearly understand where I’m coming from, I ask him to think about the following: what he stated is no different to someone saying: “Atheist organisations have been responsible for far more damage than good and have committed many atrocities and inhumane acts towards others and that is why I choose to be a Christian! Now if Nick took slight offence to Pitto’s previous comment; what would he say in response to this one?

I would have overlooked Nick’s remarks if I had not noticed that this thread would escalate into something that was turning into a debate - which seemed to have been fuelled after an innocent comment made by Pitto. But as I found it ludicrous that Pitto firstly had to defend himself regarding his previous comment and later was subjected to reading an implication that he was possibly acting in an enraged manner; I felt I had to say something as I felt things were getting out of hand and a fellow member was seriously being misunderstood.

Nonetheless, after reading your post Mandrake where you pointed out a section of Nick’s earlier post; I can accept somewhat that I may have come across a little heavy-handed with Nick. So I am sorry Nick for the fact that I was a little harsh and I do not have anything against you personally. I am also glad and appreciate that Abraxus took the time to review Pitto’s post and see it for what it was.

I think the mods here are a very decent bunch of chaps [tugs forelock in respect]. They don't wade into flame wars and join in like they do at a floppy-eared but ironically less fluffy establishment down the road. It's far more likely that there's been a bit of a mis-communication if it ever does look like they're being provocative.

Thanks for that Costas, much appreciated. If only our wonderful World 'leaders' could discuss matters in the same understanding way.....

Thanks Craig.

I appreciate your comments and yes, you do make some valid points.

I thank you for putting your thoughts across.

I didnt know quite how to say it.

I agree there Pitto!
I see what you mean Craig, and don't know enough to confirm or dispute those facts - I'll trust your knowledge on that one - but when I get out a pack of cards, the first connection people make is card games or card tricks; as far I'm aware, few people see them and think, "ooh, spiritual divination!", whereas tarot cards definitely have that association.

Both Tom (I expect) and I are fully aware that cards with pictures on them, including tarot cards, do not make something or someone evil - it isn't some absolute boundary that we feel everyone should follow: "Christians can use normal cards, but tarot cards are right out", more like a personal decision based on what we percieve people's associations to be. If for some reason normal playing cards became heavily associated with the the occult, I would try to use other props for my magic - again, not seeing the cards as wrong in some absolute sense, more that I want to steer clear of what will be "unhelpful" for people in terms of getting a handle on what I believe.

In the same way, I very much like my real ale and red wine, but in many parts of the world Christians are tee-total because of the degree to which it has caused social problems in the country. I don't think drink is evil (Tom will probably disagree here ) but am happy to oblige when I visit friends in those countries, and should this country be plunged into an epidemic of alcoholism, would probably abstain too.

Thats a point.

I also dont know enough about tarot cards to say anymore.

hehe

You obviosily know a bit about Salvation Army....I dont think drink is evil...i think its perfectly ok in proportion but its part of the promise that i sign.
Its because, origionaly (and they still do) the SA helped people who had a drink addiction.

Since I've been asked a direct question I will respond

Costas, I took no offence from Pitto's post, I was merely surprised that, the way I read it, he was implying that if he weren't Christian he would not feel obliged to show people respect and hence implying that many who aren't Christian don't show respect simply because of their lack of faith. Pitto's reply cleared that up as a complete misunderstanding.

costas wrote:So that Nick can clearly understand where I’m coming from, I ask him to think about the following: what he stated is no different to someone saying: “Atheist organisations have been responsible for far more damage than good and have committed many atrocities and inhumane acts towards others and that is why I choose to be a Christian!

This observation is quite true, though I would suggest that there are far fewer atheist organisations which give people guidlines on how to live their lives than there are religions. Personally, I would make the choice to be involved with none of those organisations; I have may faith and rules to live my life by and I don't feel that I need any guidance from an organisation of any sort to stick to that.

costas wrote:I would have overlooked Nick’s remarks if I had not noticed that this thread would escalate into something that was turning into a debate

Once again we have a demonstration of how easy it is to put a different mood and inflection onto what has been written; I saw none of the posts up to the point at which you challenged me as anything other than good natured, with very little risk of becoming otherwise.

I have found that the best way to read any thread which seems to be contencious is to take a step back and emotionally disconnect yourself from it. When you read it again you may find a different interpretation which avoids the unfortunate escalation in tension which occasionally occurs.

Another thing:

The church (as a group) at the time Craig mentioned was a mess and asociated anything which challenged it's power with the Occult. But I'm part of a free Evangelical church so Im passing the blame

Farlsborough Wrote:

"(Tom will probably disagree here )"