talkmagic.co.uk

MagicTom wrote:A trick - A seeminly impossible effect created by using a "hidden" method thats only known to magicians.

To quote wikipedia:
"The word occult comes from the Latin occultus (clandestine, hidden, secret), referring to the 'knowledge of the secret' or 'knowledge of the hidden' "

I know - I'm stirring, but you stepped right in to that one.. just couldn't resist it

taneous wrote:

MagicTom wrote:A trick - A seeminly impossible effect created by using a "hidden" method thats only known to magicians.

To quote wikipedia:
"The word occult comes from the Latin occultus (clandestine, hidden, secret), referring to the 'knowledge of the secret' or 'knowledge of the hidden' "

I know - I'm stirring, but you stepped right in to that one.. just couldn't resist it

Hmmm... this is going to get very interesting, isn't it?

Teneous... I fear I've been rubbing off on you

That was me. I didnt look that up.

I havent the experience to talk further into this.

I will do research.

A christian author has wrote about this.

Here we go. This is better than what i said previosuly which may have cause confusion.

Here is what we christian magicains believe. This si written by an American Christian Author and performer.

"The word MAGIC is perhaps the largest source of confusion. We can find at least two meanings for the word magic in the dictionary. First we find:

'The art of producing effects by what are claimed to be SUPERHUMAN means via occult powers.'

A second definition is:

'The art of applying NATURAL causes, whose operation is secret, to produce a surprising effect.'"

The point is. I think the easiest way to say it is that what we Christian Magicians perform is all done by sleight of hand and mis direction.

When you start saying "we Christian magicians" it's going to get tricky.

Is it really such a homogenous group?

Sorry.

Take out the "we!"

I've been away working for the 3 days since I posted this thread. I can't believ the response rate, and the views. Obviously a lot of interest.

fascinated by the idea of a paid for psychic ordination.

Many thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. Brilliant, though at times a little off subject.

If anyone else wants to continue the debate please do.
Perhaps I should put my view? I want to try and reflect some of the postings over the last 36 hours in my reponse.

I am a Christian and have been for the last 30 years. I love magic, as in misdirection etc. I am concerned when people who are claim to be psychics use such methods as cold reading to connect with people, even in a therapy kind of way, sorry but it is only IMO. I think my difficutly personally with it is that it is using a deceptive method to salve an issue (please note pun ) The question may be that I would ask is does the end justify the means? However, I do applaud anyone who looks to use whatever their skills or gifts are to help others, even if I personally find it hard to accept. I am sure that others will suggest that Christians lie to achieve closure on things.

I have also seen God do some incredible things. I have been part of those incredible things. I have given and received what could be called prophecies - and because of my knowlege of magic I have been aware when what could be prophecies (ie unkown knowlege revealed by God's holy spirit) are not prophecies but Barnum statements. I am also aware that sometimes an apparant move of God's spirit is close manipulation and are due to trance inducement, though quite often I think that this is unkown to the person who has done it! But there are times when God does move, believe me!

The odds of our of our existance on earth is 1:1 (with another 59 naughts after it)

YOu have more chance of hitting a target the size of a small plate on the other side of the galaxy. Is it possible that we can be here by such a chance. the argurment against this though is as follows:

Trying to use God to explain what we do not understand is called 'the God of Gaps'. As soon as you explain how something happens, God gets smaller.

(yeah, i am also have more than a passing interest in science. My magic, scientific knowlege and faith are mutually compatable.)

Your belief in God cannot therefore be based on what you don't yet understand, it must be something deeper.

When I present a magic trick I do so with an aire of one who is presenting a real mystery of the universe. I think it is important to convey to people otherwise magic becomes no more magical than a good meal. The reason I posted the original question is I am trying to express my faith in my magic without being explicit about it. For me, making the world a nicer place to live in is as important - magic (and also for me clowning) enables me to do that - and I have the evidence that people are really touched by what I do. And just for the Christians amongst you who are reading this, and for a little time at least giving people to explore the meaning of life, and perhaps from a Christian point of view, to find for themselves a creator God and Jesus, without needing perhaps to 'bible bash'

Its not lying, becuase people generally will look at what I do and realize that it requires tricks and skill, and perhaps a little magic. Perhaps the magic I am trying to find is the magic created by good theatre or a film in a cinema. We are captured by it and caught up in the story, it touches our emotions and sometimes unlocks our own thoughts and reflections. But in the end we know it is film makers art and technology, acting and music is all part of that 'magic'.

This is the magic that I want to perform, one that touches people at a deeper level. If they want to ask questions later, then they can. But otherwise, I am happy to leave it.

]Just to say one last time, many thanks to all those who have contributed to such a fascinating discussion which I feel has rather indulged me! You have helped me think through my own position. And also thanks that when you feel you have caused offence you have been quick to apologise and therefore keep the thread from being closed or deleted. Thanks to the mods.

Thanks to ...

oh forget it, sounds like a BAFTA award ceromony. Gonna go all hally berre if i keep this up.

Cheers guys (n gals)

As I say, God is no illusion.

Shame on you two, picking on a boy (no offense, Tom)

What Greek or Latin root a word is derived from does not necessarily infer meaning when used in a modern day context, I'm sure you know this! The socket of your hip joint is called an "acetabulum" - "vinegar cup" - but, you'll be surprised to hear, has very little to do with vinegar. In turn, "occult" now actually means far more than just "knowing a secret", whereas "magic" may well have roots in various pagan traditions (hey, so does Christmas) but has evolved to very much include white rabbits out of hats and "pick a card, any card". It's all very interesting, but eventually a moot point.

We could go on forever trying to split two sides of a grey area, working out where a child believing you vanished something "by magic" ends and someone asking you to cast a hex on their ex-wife begins, but then we could ask: what do children mean by "magic"? Do they even know what they mean? I remember seeing magic as a child and even though I couldn't explain it, it was still a very different thing to me than witches and wizards that I saw on TV. Ok, something was done "by magic", but the "magic" bit didn't extend very far in my mind.

I can understand why people for whom touching on "magick" in their performance is not a problem (whatever this word is derived from, for convenience I am using this to mean actual occult practice) find it illogical or amusing that Christians draw boundaries given the nature of our hobby, but to a Christian who wants to steer clear of those things, the boundaries are very clear. Explaining them may not be easy, but to oneself it is quite obvious what you can pretend to be real for the benefit of entertainment, and what implications should not be made.

And as previously mentioned, it's not a hard and fast rule - it's about what you perceive to be helpful/unhelpful to people watching. If you feel that you can use runes or tarot cards in your performance happily whilst being a Christian, who am I to argue with you? I just personally feel this is sending out a confusing statement - people may then think that "tarot cards are ok" and be tempted to take part in other things that involve tarot cards that I would very much rather they didn't.

In the same way, I know some quite stiff upper-lipped, conservative Christian families who never do the whole santa thing because they think it's wrong to lie to their children... my parents did allow me to believe in santa, chomped up carrots, drank the sherry and mince pie etc. and I will do the same for my kids when the time comes.

That is the sort of magic I want to be performing - yes, it's "magic", and part of that might be a bit of nonsense spiel about mind-reading or pyschokinesis, but at the end of the day people's reaction is the same: "that's impossible! How did you do that?!" to which I will happily reply "magic", not "wow! can you contact my dead aunty irene" or "wow! can you tell me when I'll die?"

Edit: byron, couldn't have said it better myself! "Mystery of the universe" - that's a perfect way to put it!

I wrote a long winded and incredibly in depth point of view. I was asked to sign into the forum before the post could be submitted after which the post was lost to eternity
Anyway, it's now silly o'clock so here's the basic gist of it...easier on the eyes too I suppose so maybe its not all such a bad thing to you folks who take time to read it!

There was a guy in my university halls. He was devoted to his religion and his religion was islam. He and his friends tried to convert me. They failed.
The argument was as follows:
Them: When you die, you will be judged by God on what you know rather than just the things that you did (so if you did a bad thing thinking it was good, thats all dandy but you might not get off scot free).
Me: Fine.
Them: Islam is the word of God.
Me: OK... I'm not so sure but you're pretty enthusiastic so I'll go with it.
Them: If you don't accept Islam then you will be condemned to hell.
Me: Wait..That's not cool.....I mean, I think religion is about guidance, not lifestyle...and there are so many religions all believing in the same God and same Jesus, all claiming to be right... It doesnt make sense to me to live a life based on a book you wouldnt dare question if the reason you have for not questioning that book is because it's written somewhere in that book that you shouldn't (or doesnt say you should)...and you say that if I didnt "know" that Islam was the word of God, God wouldn't be peeved that I didn't practice Islam throughout my life because I'm going to be judged on what I "know" rather than my actual actions...so basically...what I'm saying is...you just condemned me to a very long period in hell!!?!?!?!?!?!?!! Great.

It's ok though. He had a poster on his wall reading "India: kill them all" so I have a sneaking suspicion I wont be alone there.. if infact he's right in his beliefs.

I think its grotesque, by the way, to act in a certain way because of the reputation you gain from acting that way around people, though this doesnt fully apply when you get rich in the process (this is still grotesque practice, but at least it's justified...you should still feel ashamed of yourself though, it's embarrasing). If you get too rich and keep on acting that way because of the money, I again start to think it's entirely grotesque, you horrible horrible person.
Applying that to religion I think my point is clear... I did say "think"!
To clarify: I feel that acting in a way because of a religion which you dont necessarily accept is a lie close to belittleing the beliefs of everyone who does accept that religion.

To be specific, my point is that religious argument should not be about where you stand, rather, it should be every bit about your reasons for standing there in the first place.

To be relevant: why should it matter what effects you perform, or the way in which you chose to perform them, so long as you understand why you made that choice?

I truely respect everyones beliefs, even if I don't agree with them.
I hope no offence has been caused...and if it has, I accept your forgiveness.
I love that we can all joke around and play nicely together with no arguments. Isn't life good?
Spleh.

I love magic, as in misdirection etc. I am concerned when people who are claim to be psychics use such methods as cold reading to connect with people, even in a therapy kind of way, sorry but it is only IMO.


Thanks for your post.

Shame on you two, picking on a boy (no offense, Tom)

Thank you too!

Farlsborough wrote: "occult" now actually means far more than just "knowing a secret

Sure - for some people it means more than that. The problem is that christians read a lot more into the word than most occultists would. For a most christians occult = evil. The word 'discernment' is often a cop-out for fear of the unknown. Most of the time this is as a result the inability to try and listen with an open mind to people who look at life a bit differently.

I'd love to take this a bit further - but I don't think the forum is the right place for it. Also - I've discovered that the large majority of christians I speak to are too comfortable with 'following the rules' and are too scared to step out of that and discover things for themselves. It's a shame - because when I read the gospels it seems to me that most of Jesus' teaching was about freeing us from that kind of mindset..

Farlsborough wrote: Shame on you two, picking on a boy

I wasn't picking on Tom - I was stirring. I have found that this is often the best way to get people thinking about why they believe what they do. My intentions were good

It's a shame - because when I read the gospels it seems to me that most of Jesus' teaching was about freeing us from that kind of mindset..


Yes...But am i right in saying that it also says somewhere in that big book about as a christian avoiding the occult.

I may have phrased that wrong. I did not look it up. Please dont quote me and question it!!



My faith isnt about the definition of words. Its about believing in God and sticking to what i believe is right and what it wrong.

MagicTom wrote:Yes...But am i right in saying that it also says somewhere in that big book about as a christian avoiding the occult.

I may have phrased that wrong. I did not look it up. Please dont quote me and question it!!

Hmm - ok I won't quote you or question it - but maybe you should look it up and figure it out for yourself .
Also - have a look at
http://www.religioustolerance.org/occult1.htm if you're interested. I don't necesarily agree with everything that's there - but it's food for thought (and that's the thing - you need to figure these things out for yourself - it's ultimately your journey).

Christians, beware. The following post may offend you, if you're too uptight about religion.
Non Christians, this may offend you too, for reasons I will think of later...


Having read the replies here quite thoroughly, I must say I have become wised up about a fair few things, and would like to add my two pence worth...

First and foremost, every aspect of our life is shaped by what we believe in. Whether this be God, The Devil, or Bob. We believe things, and because of this, we act in certain ways.
Darwinists believe that God can't exist, because a Christian put forth an idea that was never meant to disprove God, but was instead meant to offer a biological solution to the creation story. As such, their life is shaped around the idea that we are here by pure chance, finding it unnecessary to put faith in anyone higher than themselves, and also to "come to terms with" the fact of dying.
Muslims's lives are shaped by the things they believe in too. Whether this mean they're going to blow up train stations or sit silently and pray, their life is shaped by what they believe in... as is everyone's.

As Christians, we may find it "wrong" or "sinful" to lie to people and say 'ah! it's magic!' but I do not believe God made all of his rules to be "Bang. Straight Up. Deal or No Deal" rules.
About not lying, I'm fairly sure the original scripture actually means that it is the intentional and malicious deceit that is the sin, and not the lying itself. And a lie, is really only a lie if it's accepted.
When someone asks a magician "how did you do that?" 99% of them will genuinely expect the answer "magic!". We're not trying to throw them off the scent in a cruel and nasty way, we're preserving their enjoyment of something by merely stating what they expect to hear anyway.
And besides, maybe the answer "magic" isn't so far from the truth.
We're not talking Aleister Crowley and Anton Szander LaVey Magicks here, we're talking about a spark of excitement in a spectators mind that will overpower the logic and reasoning.
Perform something well, and it becomes truly magical.
We always see "The Effect" to describe tricks. To me, the effect is not what happens, but how the spectator sees it. Sometimes, as has ben stated MANY times on these forums, the simplest of tricks can become a real showstopper if it's performed well.
Looking at it from a purely objective viewpoint, the trick is nothing special, the effect is. And therein lies the magic that we speak of.
Besides, when people ask "how did you do that?" they don't want to know what particular sleights we used or how long each took us to learn, we've created an unsolvable problem in their mind, which they want to understand. They're asking how did me make them see what they just saw.
THAT is magic, and yes, I will happily stand before God on judgement day and say I told people that tricks I did were magic, and I'm pretty damn sure he'll understand where I'm coming from.


Now, aside from the obvious point of everything we do being affected by our beliefs, there really shouldn't be any issues when it comes to performing magic.
Very rarely is ANY magician spiteful and malicious with a trick, the result is "wow! how did that happen?" not "Boo. I feel so cheated and stupid now" so the whole lying/deception thing isn't really an issue for Christians, or likewise for anyone (for I've no doubt that even the non Christians here will find it morally wrong to out and out lie to someone).
And yes, when it comes to gospel magic, the presentation should be changed to be more fitting with what the magician is trying to convey.

However, to say that as a Christian magician, your faith really affects your work is quite possibly a load of nonsense. Unless you're making Asher Twists on cards that say "Homosexuals are evil!" [edit]I would like to point out that I have no problems with homosexuals, do not consider them to be evil, nor do i think they are terrible sinners etc... [/edit] or "John 3:16" you're not really doing anything about the faith with your magic. How many people here, in all honesty have ever gone up to a stranger and said "Here... pick a card" and forced a card on them that says "Jesus died for your sins" or somesuch? I'll wager none.

Which basically means, that even Christian magicians are quite probably, just magicians.


Taneous, the stirring was quite unnecessary but I do understand where you are coming from. A lot of Christians do see "occult" and automatically think "evil", whereas I see "occult" and my mind conjours up a whole host of images, ideas and more often than not, downright deceptive trickery (think fake mediums), so I appreciate you for bringing it up. Maybe a little more tactfully though next time mate?


I apologise, I've talked for far too long on this subject, and the thread has probably in the meantime been locked down or somesuch, but there we have it, the (Christian) EckoZero's views on how and why magic can and should be able to work together in harmony without unfortunate crossovers and issues of sins etc

hehe thanks taneous.

I find that although i dont and would never follow the occult i do like to know why. And so thats why i have not ignored this thread.
That site was an iteresting thing to find out what some believe.

However some christians would say "the less you know about something "dangerous" (IMHO) the better"

There are so many questions about this that simply cannot be answered whilst we are here on earth.


Sorry this is a bit of a random post.