Why examinable?

Can't find a suitable category? Post it here!!

Moderators: nickj, Lady of Mystery, Mandrake, bananafish, support

Postby Eshly » Aug 8th, '10, 19:21



IAIN wrote:
Eshly wrote:Iain, I challenge you to find a single topic I have made where I've asked a question and not taken someones advice. I always have, maybe not yours, but I always have.


i've never seen you take anyone's advice - i couldnt give a monkeys if its mine or not :lol:

never seen you take bob cassidy's advice, nor greg arce's or any of the others...


Ok well let me give you some examples:



Michael Murry - My favourite mentalist friend. I often go and see him and ask for advice on billet work and such. Very good mentalist imo.

Steve Shaw - No, not THAT Steve Shaw... but anyway he isn't a mentalist, but he knows a hell of a lot about wallets and often about all the new products, so a great guy. Just got off the phone from him.

Entity - We talk on the cafe a lot.

Iain - Yes you. I took your advice on swami work.

Harris - Yesterday he educated me on how to learn for yourself and on Q&A envelopes.






Theres a lot more but I can't remember them off the top of my head. :P

Eshly
 

Postby magicj » Aug 8th, '10, 19:29

So Guys:

Magic Tricks - why Examinable?

User avatar
magicj
Senior Member
 
Posts: 369
Joined: Nov 9th, '07, 14:40
Location: Glos. UK (21)

Postby spooneythegoon » Aug 8th, '10, 19:49

Thanks for nudging us back on topic there :D

Spooneythegoon
User avatar
spooneythegoon
Advanced Member
 
Posts: 1806
Joined: Oct 22nd, '09, 19:43
Location: UK AH

Postby Lawrence » Aug 8th, '10, 20:06

magicj wrote:So Guys:

Magic Tricks - why Examinable?


Only really needs to be if it adds anything to the effect. usually, it doesn't; so it doesn't need to be.

I've done gigs where the only thing that was technically "examined" was a coin borrowed from spectator. This was then switched for a bent 10p, done.
Everything else was gimmicks; simple solution, just don't ask them to examine it.

There's no need to hand anyone a deck of cards or a coin if it isn't their's.
If anyone asks to look at it, say no. done.

Custom R&S decks made to specification - PM me for details
User avatar
Lawrence
Veteran Member
 
Posts: 5069
Joined: Jul 3rd, '06, 23:40
Location: Wakefield 28:SH

Postby Randy » Aug 8th, '10, 20:10

I've always believed that having them examine something tends to waste time and slows the effect down. There are some things that you don't want them to examine even if it's OK.

Randy
Senior Member
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Jul 9th, '09, 03:44

Postby spooneythegoon » Aug 8th, '10, 20:13

And surely if they weren't suspecting gimmicks before, they will be once you ask them to look for them! And so the effect turns into a demonstration of how good you are at hiding gimmicks. :roll:

Spooneythegoon
User avatar
spooneythegoon
Advanced Member
 
Posts: 1806
Joined: Oct 22nd, '09, 19:43
Location: UK AH

Postby Klangster1971 » Aug 8th, '10, 20:19

OK - Why Examinable?

I guess this also veers towards Tom's preoccupation with the 'cleanliness' of an effect/method but I hope we won't stray too far off track again.

Making the props for an effect examinable is a nice addition to an effect, particularly in close-up work, in my experience. You know the type of thing :- You're working in a bar/restaurant and just after performing OOTW or something, one of the loudmouths will say "Yeah, but they're gimmicked cards" or somesuch and the easiest thing to do to avoid a scene is just to let them have a look at the blasted things.

However... this rarely solves the problem. Just because he can't see if they're marked/gimmicked doesn't mean that he stops thinking it. So, handing the cards out hasn't really solved anything.

IMHO, I think the 'trick' to the whole thing is basic audience management. You let them examine what they're allowed to examine and you don't let them examine what you want to keep a secret. If you manage the audience subtly, carefully and - above all - casually, you will never have any problems at all keeping your secrets hidden whilst still giving the impression that you are being fair and above board with everyone. I'll give you a personal example - I have the world's worst DL.. Just can't get it down at all. So, I use THE most basic method I think I've ever seen and I just ensure that I keep the spectators engaged whilst I perform the get-ready. I have never, ever been caught out on it and, if I'm honest, I get as much of a buzz out of using that single method than I sometimes do out of a whole routine!

At the risk of de-railing the thread again, I agree with some of the earlier posters on Tom's viewpoints. Tom, I think you just need to go out and perform... you'll soon see the benefit of what everyone here has been saying. Laypeople (in general) just aren't that interested in the methods. Now that's not to say that you won't get asked the odd awkward question (which is where you performing skills/audience management skills come into play) and it's certainly not to say that you will never get caught out. I defy any regular performer to say that they have never messed a trick up in front of an audience - it's all part of the learning process.

Sean

I know the difference between tempting and choosing my fate
User avatar
Klangster1971
Senior Member
 
Posts: 816
Joined: Sep 12th, '09, 12:45
Location: Klang Manor, Stone, Staffordshire

Postby Randy » Aug 8th, '10, 20:22

The other thing is that if you constantly have them examine stuff, it looks less like you are there to entertain them, and more like you are trying to give them a puzzle. This will end up hurting your act. Because now they will be less likely to enjoy the effect and more likely to sit there and constantly try to ruin it for everybody else. You end up looking like a jackass who as this "Look how clever I am." attitude, and well Nobody likes a smart ass.

Randy
Senior Member
 
Posts: 531
Joined: Jul 9th, '09, 03:44

Postby SamGurney » Aug 8th, '10, 20:54

kartoffelngeist wrote:I suspect (maybe not in Eshly's case, I don't know) that a lot of the need/desire for things to be examinable has come from young people (don't want to say kids, because they seem to get defensive when they're called that ;) ) doing tricks for their friends at school.

In this context, people will just grab a coin or a deck of cards, which makes using um-examinable gimmicks almost impossible (especially since you can't have the necessary audience management skills at that age, that can only come with experience).

I suspect this has been picked up by the suppliers who target this lot (people like E) and then suddenly become part of advertising.


Interesting point. In that enviroment it can be a dream (Plenty of interuptions.. great reactions) and often, at best a nightmare (.... still... Plenty of interuptions.. crappy or indignant reactions e.t.c. ) But in terms of examinability there isn't a world of difference from other performing enviroments in all honesty. Angles can be challenging (although sometimes they're just perfect) and spectator-performer relationship is vastly different. Therein is the biggest issue, the fact that nobody has to shut up and put up with your nonesense if they don't like it, they will tell you if you're c*** (not the best) or treating them like a moron. There is no false politeness, and I honestly think that brutality can produce superb feedback. Thick skin is important, there is no dignity in 52 card pick up, quarells with teachers ensue naturally and expect abuse if you are not a performing monkey. All in all, as I said, it can be hellish but it can also be the best, given that the only survival method is to not be c*** (not the best).

...........................................................................................................

On inspectability.. I'll keep it short, sweet and Orwellian. (And avoid tautological superfluous pleonasmic verbosity.. damn).
If anyone still studies acting (y'know.. David Devant and all that), then Stanislavski is constantly talking about what he called the 'magic if' and 'given circumstances'.
(Or should I say, he is Konstantinly talking about them? Oh dear.. sweet cheeses... )
Anyway... I was saying- they are one of the main principles in his essentially naturalistic acting system and the idea of them is to always be asking the questions: 'What if I were in such and such a situation?' 'What if we introduced such and such a circumstance, or such and such a subtext?' and so on.
In fact, it seems like relativley common sense- but common sense is rarley as common as it suggests. And, besides, it is still worth it as a mental checklist just to regulate illogical acting.
Well suppose we apply it to our given circumstances: we are a psychic, psychologist... whatever, someone who claims legitimate skill, who has no need to know anything about cheating e.t.c. It is a difficult call- for example, would they even have a disclaimer against stooges?

Well, feeling meticulous, I researched a presumably authentic psychological demonstration by Paul Ekman ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXm6YbXxSYk ) the question of being stooges and methods of acheiving the 'effect' were never mentioned. It was taken for granted that it was legitimate and the though had not even crossed his mind. Of course, why would it? Sometimes negating a claim has the opposite effect of bringing attention to it.

What about, say, Daniel Tammet ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbASOcqc1Ss ) ? Another authentic demonstration of mental skills: on occasion there were obvious precautions taken to avoid blatant fraud: 'You can't see this calculator can you? You haven't memorised all the answers, have you?' e.t.c. These were natural in the given circumstances- but there was never any 'Notice my hands are empty, moments' and Daniel himself never mitigated any doubts, he simply took for granted that he was real.. because he was.

In Sherlock Holmes (fictional I know, but still relevant) once again, Holmes himself never says ' I did not pay that person off to act for me' or 'I did not look up your history': it was Watson who had such doubts, but evidence rejected his facts. So we see a reocurring formula of the person with the gift, never even having cheating occur to them in the slightest- but any silent doubts are evidently proved wrong. As magicians then, its the nonchalant gestures which show those who are suspicious our hands are empty, or the 'incidental' flashing of a card to show it is the same... e.t.c. which live up best to the 'magic ifs' and 'given circumstances' our role demands.

The important observation to make, is that in the real circumstances, all the attention is on the character that is the extraordinary human being before the audience. In fact, if you keep an eye open for genuine demonstrations of skills, there will often be so much opportunity to cheat even if you only had half a brain. Evidence becomes redundant, and a narrator could simply make an unsubstantiated claim that nobody questions. Cheating is easy. Making people not even consider the possibility of cheating seriously, is not at all so easy. As long as the attention is all on the person and their supposed abilities. I think sometimes, psychics do this much better than the vast majority of magicians even though their modus operandi may even be childish. The only question is then, is the personal preference of naturalism or the elusive question mark what you want?

I leave then, with some relevant quotes, explaining the need for observing what happens 'for real':
Stanislavski:
The genuine actor is set on fire by what is happening around him, he is carried away by life, which then becomes the object of his study and his passion


Tony Corinda:
Look at yourself. Watch what you do in every day life so that you can find out how you behave when you are behaving naturally. Do anything just as you would do it normally, but watch the ways your hands hold a pencil, pick up a book, light a cigarette. Watch and observe, you are teaching yourself how you behave!


The odd thing about magician's is that when this sort of thing is said, everybody agrees and at the same time everybody thinks it applies to somebody else.


Last edited by SamGurney on Aug 8th, '10, 22:13, edited 9 times in total.
''To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in another's.'' Dostoevsky's Razumihin.
SamGurney
Advanced Member
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Feb 9th, '10, 01:01

Postby IAIN » Aug 8th, '10, 21:23

...been thinking about this, and its an interesting point...

i don't remember many of the much older books saying much about things being examinable...there's a couple of instances sure, but generally - its not really mentioned...

the al mann stuff, dunninger, robert nelson, annemann - the whole discussion of examinability is pretty rare on the ground...

IAIN
 

Postby Vanderbelt » Aug 8th, '10, 21:39

I know it's because of the nature of the stuff I do and (hopefully) my performance but I never have have anyone ask me to examine stuff. Because it's just stationary! I'd probably suffer some sort of magician's guilt if I did 'proppy' magic. Who knows?

On the point of Tom, I rather like the lad! For a long time I just lurked here because I thought I had nothing to offer, I just gleaned all the advice I could from existing posts.
Tom, don't for a moment think that inexperience makes your advice any less valuable. Even anecdotal stuff from effects you've performed down the pub can give something to a newbie.

User avatar
Vanderbelt
Senior Member
 
Posts: 689
Joined: Jul 16th, '10, 08:13

Postby SamGurney » Aug 8th, '10, 22:01

IAIN wrote:...been thinking about this, and its an interesting point...

i don't remember many of the much older books saying much about things being examinable...there's a couple of instances sure, but generally - its not really mentioned...

the al mann stuff, dunninger, robert nelson, annemann - the whole discussion of examinability is pretty rare on the ground...

Ignore my essay. I have two words which prove the point.
Window Envelope.
That is all.

''To go wrong in one's own way is better than to go right in another's.'' Dostoevsky's Razumihin.
SamGurney
Advanced Member
 
Posts: 1014
Joined: Feb 9th, '10, 01:01

Postby just me » Aug 8th, '10, 22:24

my humble opinion: the reason that many (younger magicians) have such an obsession with thing being examinable is that it simply takes the pressure off (wow! susch insight) it means that even if you do make a slight stuff up, you can reassure yourself that atleast you can show you didn't cheat them (even if you did) this post isn't making nearly as much sense as I had hoped so I better stop.

just me
Senior Member
 
Posts: 442
Joined: Mar 24th, '08, 04:28
Location: somewhere in the pacific ocean

Postby Gary Dickson » Aug 8th, '10, 22:48

Klangster1971 wrote:IMHO, I think the 'trick' to the whole thing is basic audience management. You let them examine what they're allowed to examine and you don't let them examine what you want to keep a secret. If you manage the audience subtly, carefully and - above all - casually, you will never have any problems at all keeping your secrets hidden whilst still giving the impression that you are being fair and above board with everyone.


Couldn't agree more. And as has been mentioned before on this thread, just behaving as if there is nothing 'wrong' with your props will give the impression that there is nothing wrong. If you can't do that, then get acting lessons.

User avatar
Gary Dickson
Senior Member
 
Posts: 424
Joined: Jan 10th, '07, 04:49
Location: Nottingham, UK 37:AH

Postby Mr_Grue » Aug 8th, '10, 23:06

Van_der_Belt wrote: Even anecdotal stuff from effects you've performed down the pub can give something to a newbie.


This. I'm very careful (usually) to put whatever advice or comment I post here in context. I think that's all that is necessary, really.

And speaking of anecdotal stuff, an effect of my own devising that I've not performed a huge number of times leaves a participant with a deck of cards in hand, and a deck they really shouldn't look at stowed away in its case. Do you know what happens? If they examine anything at all, they examine the deck in their hands. They do not even ask to look at the other cards, partly because the effect places the performer so far ahead that the idea of the other deck being untoward doesn't make any kind of immediate sense in unravelling what just happened.

User avatar
Mr_Grue
Elite Member
 
Posts: 2689
Joined: Jan 5th, '07, 15:53
Location: London, UK (38:AH)

PreviousNext

Return to Miscellaneous

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests