talkmagic.co.uk

abraxus wrote:uri gellars a magician?

you said yourself "the internet has all but taken the mystery out of everything else" - so why use it to take the mystery out of this?

seems at odds to everything else you said...

hehe perhaps that is somewhat counter to my request

however, allow me to phrase it another way. i fully respect the secrecy of the trade. i fully respect your decision not to say. BUT, if there is already something out there that would aid my understanding, then i'd very much appreciate being able to read it.

i'll reveal all to you right now, and please, think on this and all shall be revealed...

A MAGICIAN GUARDS AN EMPTY BOX...

there you go...thats your answer!

that's fair enough

Ah, good chap, elitism has nothing to do with it.

If you were interested in psychology and (assuming you knew nothing about it) wanted to dive right in to advanced books on neuroscience would you call the psychologist advising you not to an elitist? Nope. You have to start with the basics and work your way up.

without wishing to go OT here, I'm sorry but i can't help but feel patronised by the way you're replying to me

FWIW, a psychologist would not know very much about neuroscience, aside from the psychological branch of neuroscience. as a (1st class ) psychology graduand and (1st class ) business postgraduate, i feel i know enough to know there is a difference between being advised by a consultant specialist in a given area, and being patronised by someone who knows more than you about a given topic, being made to feel somewhat stupid for asking a question

i certainly wouldn't pay to see someone make me feel stupid

If you wish to continue calling me an elitist then please bear in mind you are making assumptions about something you know little about...

again... i can't help but feel this is somewhat condescending. a strawman argument, whereby you are allowed to assume i know nothing about magic, but i am not allowed to make assumptions myself...

all you needed to say was something similarly witty as abraxus. i'd certainly have appreciated that more than being told i know nothing, will never know more than that because allegedly magic is "too difficult and too costly" and should just smile sweetly at the act in front of me...

just remember that there may be others who are simply curious, and one day that curiosity may develop into a passion - resulting in a first class magician that may (heaven forbid) exceed your own talents. to stifle someone's curiosity so early on is, in my opinion anyway, a little harsh, and does not cast a very positive reflection on the world of magic

i leave it at that, and thank you all for your replies... i'll remain curious, but probably won't be spending a few grand on a floating table just to see how it works

My my, this has gotten rather bitter and somewhat off-topic. Please play nicely children.

The most important point to make here is surely that, wheter or not you're interesting in performing magic or not, knowing the secrets does take the magic out of it, so to speak.

Oh, I just responded in kind to your "fine man" comment.

I didn't make any assumptions, you flat-out said you were a layperson.

And for the love of God please read what's written. At no point did I say you knew nothing, nor would ever learn anything. I said you have to start at the beginning and work your way up.

*Sigh* wrote:all you needed to say was something similarly witty as abraxus. i'd certainly have appreciated that more than being told i know nothing, will never know more than that because allegedly magic is "too difficult and too costly" and should just smile sweetly at the act in front of me...

Reality wrote:You have to start with the basics and work your way up.

I merely speak from experience having heard of many performers looking into more advanced material and just not getting it - they just didn't understand it until they had gained more experience.

resulting in a first class magician that may (heaven forbid) exceed your own talents

Heaven forbid you should stop making incorrect inferences from what I've written! Egotism and elitism was never at play here, you fail to understand that (although I think your ego may be a problem here).

The very fact that you can't distinguish between magic and what Derren does shows how little you know about the art. It's a simple matter of fact that you need to start at the beginning and work you way up.

I will however say you are correct about neuroscience. I meant neurobiology. But that's what you've get when you've had less than five hours sleep. As a psychologist you should understand the implications .

Derren Brown wrote:Would you be so kind as to not ask for my secrets, or indeed any magic secrets. If i told you how it's done, then i would simply have to set fire to you whilst you were asleep. Thank you so very much...

But i am glad you enjoyed the show. If i told you how i may or may not achieve what i perform; it would then spoil it for you for the rest of your life.

But, if you so wished to learn certain secrets that i may or may not use - then please start from the basics and work your way up to my obviously giddying heights of immense stardom.

Nuff said!

I once asked a lawyer for free advice to satisfy my "curiosity"... needless to say he declined.

How does DB do it? well I think he fuses magic, psychology, misdirection & showmanship.

good luck to all you so & so's who've seen the show. I am most envious!

Aww! You've spoilt it now!

I'm sure that DB will get to Oz soon enough.

PM to Neil with some friendly advice if not any answers to your original question.

"Nuff Said" probably sums it up really.

B0bbY_CaT wrote:How does DB do it? well I think he fuses magic, psychology, misdirection & showmanship.

You missed 'suggestion'. Idiot! hehehe

We really shouldn't be too harsh on Neil though, he was only asking.

JackWright wrote:We really shouldn't be too harsh on Neil though, he was only asking.

I wasn't harsh on neilcuk because he asked, it was when he started making up things I'd never said and had a go because I didn't say anything in a witty manner that I got worked up about (and have since revised five times).

Cardza wrote:

JackWright wrote:We really shouldn't be too harsh on Neil though, he was only asking.

I wasn't harsh on neilcuk because he asked, it was when he started making up things I'd never said and had a go because I didn't say anything in a witty manner that I got worked up about (and have since revised five times).

Indeed. Although you did, however, suggest that he wanted to learn how to perform Derren’s effect, which was simply an incorrect assumption on your part. In reality, he was simply interested in getting an idea of how the effect was achieved, and had no desire to spend the time and money required to learn to perform it, or even be told as much.
I would agree that it is trivial to try and dissemble effects in such a way or even feel that you would be benefited by knowing the basics of the method (in fact the opposite is true), but it was, in my opinion, your incorrect interpretation and subsequent response that led to such an idiotic discussion in the first place.

My advice (seeing as we’re being somewhat condescending): If you write something and are then required to revise it on 5 occasions, then it’s probably not worth the effort.

JackWright wrote:My advice (seeing as we’re being somewhat condescending): If you write something and are then required to revise it on 5 occasions, then it’s probably not worth the effort.

Very true! I just didn't want to leave it as it was, it was a bit too strong.

Oh well, these things happen.

(And I'm ensuring I get more than five hours sleep before posting again! It doesn't bring out the best of me)

Indeed they do. Anyway, perhaps we should get back onto the topic.

Who noticed the monkey?

(EDIT: I'm an insomniac, you get used to it after about 2 years)

By the way, those of you that went to see the show on Tuesday in Ipswich (Bananafish, et al), I was second in line to go up for the phone call... was going to call my Dad - damn that man that made it up there first!

Still, at least I touched one of Derren's rings...

JackWright wrote:Indeed they do. Anyway, perhaps we should get back onto the topic.

Who noticed the monkey?

(EDIT: I'm an insomniac, you get used to it after about 2 years)

I'm an insomniac too but I have age and a job with no set times on my side as an excuse rather than a PlayStation and 'puter.

JackWright, relax young fella...

the conversation between Neilcuk and Cardza is interesting. should one's curiosity mean information should be offered freely, easily or without any specific effort? I dont see why.

just because I am curious, should elements of an effect be served up to me without any effort on my part to earn that info? i don't think so.

B0bbY_CaT wrote:JackWright, relax young fella...

the conversation between Neilcuk and Cardza is interesting. should one's curiosity mean information should be offered freely, easily or without any specific effort? I dont see why.

just because I am curious, should elements of an effect be served up to me without any effort on my part to earn that info? i don't think so.

Absolutely not, but my point was that, as opposed to simply saying either 'no, we can't tell you that' or 'yes, I've PM'd you' and telling them roughly how it was done (e.g. 'technology'), some members of the forum misinterprited his query as secret-seeking and responded accordingly. My understanding of Neil's request was not that he was looking to try and perform such an effect without actually purchasing it, but simply to get the jist of how it was done. Perhaps you could enlighten us as to what specific effort would be needed on the part of Neil in order to aquire the, frankly, very simply information he requested?

I would agree that Neil and Cardza's conversation was interesting, but when it gets to the point where patronising and completely irrelevant lectures are being made about elitism and one is required to back up one's (subsequently revised) post with insomniac tendancies, then the 'fun' really must stop.

If we review to Neil's first post we would see:

neilcuk wrote:for us lay people who know it's magic, know it's not really as spectacular as it seems, and know a few techniques from reading his book and other sites, is there some resource where we can find out how these tricks, or similar renditions of them, are done?

here he is clearly not hunting for secrets, but simply a resource from which he can learn. It was the later posts by other members the created the dispute in the first place.

Now I would really prefer this thread to get back on-topic so pehaps you'd like to PM me and we can continue this elswhere?