talkmagic.co.uk

If I ever find myself in the presence of a talkmagic tarot reader, or palm reader in fact, I would love to have either done, for a discount of course

Two things up front... My Apologies to ALL for being such a stick in the mud... I admit that much of my initial reactions were just that... reactions to what seemed to be the same old cynic vs. believer game. Fortunately for us all the thread has evolved into a very sound bit of conversation and for that I must add a huge THANK YOU to everyone, even though I believe some need to understand better the difference between being an ardent Skeptic vs. a pain in the *rse cynic that simply refused to disbelieve any and all no matter how much evidence is presented by whom to the contrary.

The so-called "History of the Tarot" was cute... it has some level of validity but it also reeks of common lore -- some of the more dramatic mythos associated with the cards and symbols; the truth being known, no one is certain of their age or how long they've been used as an oracle. Truth of the matter is, normal playing cards have been used much more than the Tarot for divination well into our current generation in fact.

As I pointed out previously though, no oracle lends to us genuine prophetic vision. That is not the purpose of divination but has become a deliberately misapplied element used in association to said work; part of this myth can be traced directly to "the church" (on the whole) in that a heretical "gospel" is associated with them (see the previous history lesson post) but likewise Rome saw fit to insinuate that only the clergy of Rome could be given such abilities... something many a cleric quickly went out to exploit via acts of Bibliomancy and such wonderful prophetic stunts as dunking hapless individuals... those true of heart floating to the top but the "witches" sank to the bottom... so much for the Church's claim to perfect insight...

Yes, in a literal sense the cards are just "past board" with pictures on them; the "power" they possess comes from what we lend to them, nothing other. BUT what our cynical fellows fail to comprehend (it would seem) is that the cards represent a literal "language" that can be learned and interpreted at a literal level, toss in life experience and being attuned to one's gut (intuition) and you start catching a glimpse of "the psychic" side of things -- that 6th sense that science actually has proven to exist but the doubting Thomas' of the world refuse to acknowledge... along with the dozen or so other natural "senses" we actually have vs. the 5 we were taught about in grade school. My memory serving me right, it was Banachek himself that pointed this out one night during some polite conversation... so don't take my word for it, I'm just sharing information others who seem to host a stronger node of validity in the mind of others, have shared with me.

Long before Carl Jung and all the other pioneers of Psychology & Psychiatry were ever born our ancestors placed meaning and significance to just about everything, giving to it all a kind of "language". A language that was later re-interpreted by people like Jung, Freud, etc and presented to the academic world... literally sold to the "smart people" of society who in turn seemed to blind themselves significantly, believing that an understanding of such things made them superior to everyone else. The catch is, these people are using many of the same sort of symbols and interpretations and generalities to come to the same basic conclusions. Oddly when you have a piece on the paper on the wall from Yale or Harvard in which it's all Piled Higher & Deeper it instantly transforms what the shaman already knew, but dispels the mysticism, the ritual, the flare and the dramatic. The Doctors of the Mind still using this and that elixir be it from Phizer or Lilly or whichever witchdoctor they think makes the best magick...

The legitimizing of such things, the evolution of what the ancients knew and wove with religious as well as esoteric meaning that the analytical mind transmuted into a "science" is quite an amazing thing; both good and bad. The formalization of it all, the creation of a brain pool (for lack of a better term) allowed the modern shaman... these counselors and "shrinks" as they were often called, to formulate a more rigid sense of both, testing and diagnosis yet, the essence of what they do all comes from what our ancestors did.

The point being, it's all the same. What makes one "right" and the other "wrong" stems from politics and economics far more than science and so-called facts. After all, the realm of Psychological study wasn't really given exceptional respect for being much more than a pseudo-science in which long haired freaks, atheists and perverts seemed to be most comfortable vs. the truth intellects and movers within society.

Kind of funny how the paradigm can shift in the course of a single century, isn't it?

I have many concerns when it comes to what Reader's share with their patrons, how they manage their clients and so forth. I believe that people such as Mark Lewis, Tony Razzano, Millard Longman, John Riggs and my self serve a potent purpose just by being "there" as it were; dis-swaying the would be charlatan or, when it is a must, helping "the community" clean up a particular mess... and trust me, you don't want to be on the negative end of a united Psychic Front... if they come after you for fraud and abuse of your clients, you're pretty much SOL. Contrary to the propaganda spread by the various skeptics groups, the majority of charlatans who are abusive to the public, are "outed" and "ousted" by the other psychics, healers, etc. within the region.

Those of us that are involved are better poised for seeing potential dangers in its many forms. Similarly, I'm quite confident that most of us are fair and honest enough to never take undue advantage of our guests... though we may employ a cheat or two here and there during a Psychic Fair, just to such business from the other Readers not that I know of anyone that would grandstand and go out of their way to prove their abilities superceed those of the other Readers...

... then again, most of us who know the shut-eye side of things as well as the "open eyed" side of the tale, always prove to be the better Readers. We should be, we're constantly studying the kind of material that makes one better, end of story!


The "Bottom Line" I guess, is that the chicanery stems from the person that does the Reading; if it is their nature to deceive and exploit folks for the sake of self-gain, they will and they typically have an array of tricks and tactics they will use to do so. But if you are the sort who is generally humble, kind and of a good heart, the odds are stronger that you'll go hungry as you do Readings because you're the sucker for a hard-luck tale and your genuine desire is to help as you can.

When it comes to the Entertainment side of Readings... well, tons of books have been compiled on that subject, everything form the original canned answers to questions of the Dr. Q or A era to the compositions given us by the late Herb Dewey. Systems that work but at the same time I fear, have been grossly misrepresented by those consuming their data. Even the Rowland book after all, was never intended for the magic community but as a coffee table book sold to the laity... not that any of our VIPs would ever be guilty of exposing things.

That however, is a can of worms best left to another time; the UK and the US having strangely varied perspectives on such things.

I suppose I might as well get a commercial in. I have done thousands upon thousands of readings. It gives me the willies just thinking about how many tapes of mine are out there.

Even though this is a site for conjurers of which I am one I use no trickery whatsoever during readings. I am considered to be one of the leading psychic consultants in Canada.

Here is the deal. If anyone wishes to have a TRUE reading from me using no shenanigans whatever let me know. I use no cold reading or any of that other guff because it simply is not necessary. I use my knowledge of tarot and my psychic ability only.

This is what I suggest. Send me a short note with your date of birth, any three questions you would like to have the answer to and a photograph of yourself which I will return. I will then send you a half hour reading on cassette audiotape. You will be astonished at the accuracy of it.

For those of you sceptical types it will be educational for you and I suggest you try it providing the questions are genuine ones and not ones to trap or trick me. If you do that then you are just wasting my time and your money.

For those of you who wish to learn this fascinating business it will be educational for you and for those of you who have troubles in your life
(and I can already sense particular people here who I will not identify) that they need help with then the reading may change your destiny.

The fee is 35 pounds. This will cover postage etc; There is no need to go to the bank to convert to Canadian money. Just send me a sterling cheque and I will deal with it.

Mail from and to Canada is remarkably fast. I will do the reading straight away.

You can find my address on my website at www.marklewisentertainment.com

By all means contact me privately for more details.

I'm really enjoying this thread. It's stayed pretty civil!

themagicwand wrote:Yes, but what exactly is cold reading? Cold reading seems to have become this stock phrase used by sceptics to describe the reading process. I wonder if anyone can define cold reading for me?

I've noticed that too. It seems to be used as an explanation for readings, as in "it can't be legitimate, it's just cold reading." Is information intuited by the reader cold reading? It seems the term is often used to imply some deliberate act of analysis or generalised statement known to be likely to produce a hit and/or the Forer effect.

I must admit that I have used the term a bit widely in some cases (like the post I quoted earlier), although I was using it as a form of shorthand there.

On the subject of whether peices of cardboard can have power, of course not.

However, if you think the symbols on the cards cannot have power, then you need to do some reading and thinking. I am not talking about mystical power (in the usual sense), but the power of thought and imagination.

Or, to put it another way, how do most people react to a swastika? The original versions were Aryan (i.e. Indian) in origin, and are thought to represent the sun. I've seen an Asian man wearing one round his neck within the last year. However, to most people (in the West), the symbol is irrevocably linked to the Nazis.

Yes, but what exactly is cold reading?

I agree that a lot of different methods get bunched together and called cold reading, though basically, what I meant was 'non=psychic means'.

And yes, symbols can mean a lot of different things to different people, though this doesn't mean that there is anything supernatural about the tarot.
And to open another can of worms...why the need to learn magic/mentalism if you can do it 'for real'.

mark lewis wrote:I will then send you a half hour reading on cassette audiotape. You will be astonished at the accuracy of it.

A cassette tape? In 2008? Have you run out of wax gramophone plates? Will you also be sending it by carrier pigeon?

Only messing with you, Mr Lewis, I love you really. I'd quite like a reading from you, but not for thirty four and one British pounds. How about free if I send a semi-nude picture?

COLD reading is a reading done on a cold subject, in other words, without ANY prior knowledge regarding the subject. If SOME non-intuitive or deductive information is obtained, simultaneous with the visit of the subject (for example, information gleaned from a return address spied on an envelope in the subject's possesion), it becomes a WARM reading. If information regarding the subject is acquired prior to the visit, it is HOT reading.

I'm surprised no ones even mentioned cartomancy!

This dreadful queen of clubs woman is most impertinent.

Madam. I am a psychic reverend and holy man of the cloth and I have utterly no desire to see you in a half clothed state. Do have a sense of decorum my dear or I shall ask Reverend Browning to devour you. He is also a psychic reverend but is more into hell and damnation than I am so you had better behave yourself.

Shufton wrote:COLD reading is a reading done on a cold subject, in other words, without ANY prior knowledge regarding the subject. If SOME non-intuitive or deductive information is obtained, simultaneous with the visit of the subject (for example, information gleaned from a return address spied on an envelope in the subject's possesion), it becomes a WARM reading. If information regarding the subject is acquired prior to the visit, it is HOT reading.

Actually the whole myth of "Warm" and "Hot" Readings was invented by the Skeptic's world... more specifically, magicians.

A Cold Reading is one of two things in today's world; what I highlighted in your comment above. but because of the mis-application of the term within the magic world and cynic's community, it has come to denote most any psychological application including but not limited to what used to be known as "Niche Readings" and/or "Spiel" -- simple canned responses to common questions based on gender, age and assumed "status" i.e. education level, economic standing, etc. Trust me however, much of those old cliche bits would get one slapped rather hard in today's world.

Prior to the early and mid 1980s when the Warm & Hot terms were first introduced to the trade, even the clipboard and billet gleaned data was seen as being part of a "Reader's Skill" ... not a "Cold Reader" but just plain "Reader" and I am referring to how magic based authors presented this information not the shut-eye element. It has been this ignorant quest of proving one's self an "expert" on things that hasn't just blurred once very simple lines but legitimate definition as well. But there is a seeming logic to why this confusion has never been challenged by others within the cynic's society.

As I mentioned previously, the cards are a language in and other their own... same with Runes and most all other bits of symbolism. You literally have a "canned meaning" or "stock Reading" if you would based on that symbol as well as its correlation to the other symbols, positioning, etc. within a "spread" e.g. there is a very honest truth to the claim "that it's all cold reading" as in canned spiel. The implication being a kind of dual reality factor in that the term Cold Reading now implies several different things and like most decent two-bit lawyers and armchair experts, knowing how to manipulate the varied significance of a term, like Cold Reading, is part of the game via which confusion and confoundedness come about.

abraxus wrote:I'm surprised no ones even mentioned cartomancy!

http://www.deceptionary.com/tutor-cards.html

Reading throughg your quote below, there is something I am curious about. Please don't take this as having a go at you though, just a genuine question.

After all the things you said to your friend, it seems strange that you are asking for people who REALLY KNOW about Tarot Readings.

Is this because, afterwards, something happened, maybe doubt crept in?

Or is it so that you could bring your thoughts about Tarot being rubbish to a wider audience?

I honestly can't see why you have asked for people to explain about Tarot when you say you're convinced it's not real, unless it was to tell people they are talking rubbish.

queen of clubs wrote:I'm a cynical, bitter and twisted skeptic. I don't believe in God. I don't believe in elves or fairies. I don't believe in magic. I don't believe in the supernatural and I don't believe in mind-reading.

I recently chatted with a very dear friend of mine who does amateur Tarot readings for her friends, and I pretty much told her it was all utter charlatanism, bunk, tosh, Barnum statements, lucky guesses, cold reading, inside knowledge, psychology, sociology, misdirection and piddle.

This offended her. She told me to her it was real. She's not misleading people.

So I'm asking for replies from the members of this forum who REALLY KNOW what they're talking about. I'm referring to the Tomos and the magicwands and the Lewises.

I am convinced there is nothing to Tarot that is other worldly, or mystic, or spooky - it's just a learned technique to impress people in a way that gives them little choice to conclude anything other than it's "real".

Discuss.

Darrel wrote:After all the things you said to your friend, it seems strange that you are asking for people who REALLY KNOW about Tarot Readings.

Is this because, afterwards, something happened, maybe doubt crept in?

Or is it so that you could bring your thoughts about Tarot being rubbish to a wider audience?

I honestly can't see why you have asked for people to explain about Tarot when you say you're convinced it's not real, unless it was to tell people they are talking rubbish.

I'll try and explain what I was thinking...

When it comes to performance, I am a card magic purist, but I have a personal interest in all areas of magic and mentalism, etc. Even though I would never intend to perform, for instance, a sponge-ball routine, I still have to know how it's done. So I find out. I'm the same with any subject that's appropriate for discussion on this forum - when it comes to magic I have a very strong desire to know how it's done simply for my own satisfaction.

That's why I asked for experts on the Tarot to discuss what it really was, what was real about it, what wasn't. Whilst I'm a deep skeptic (and cynic, yes, Craig Browning, you're right) and do not believe there is anything paranormal in the world, I still want to have as much knowledge about these subjects as possible.

I asked the questions in this thread so that I coud have the benefit of the opinions of people who were very experienced and knowledgeable about the Tarot because, up until now, I couldn't have truthfully said that I've heard any expert opinions. Now I have, and my own opinions on the subject are now more valid, because they've been tested.

For instance, I don't believe in God, but I have read the Bible and listened at length to religious people simply because I believe that anyone who argues against something is only qualified to do so once they've absorbed and done their best to understand what it is they disagree with. People were trying to get "Jerry Springer: The Opera" banned without ever having seen it, and I never want to be in that hypocritical position of saying "Oh, I hate such-and-such" and then have someone ask me "Have you ever seen it?", because I'd rightfully be exposed as a moron if I then had to admit "Er... no".

It occured to me that, while my instincts told me there is nothing "special" or "other-worldly" about Tarot cards, I didn't really know too much about the practice or the opinions of its practicioners. So it was about time to try and change that by asking a controversial question.

Does that make any sense? Sorry for rambling, but I hate it when people misunderstand my motives.

Makes total sense, Queenie. Wouldn't it be nice if there were more people in the world that thought that way.

I believe, if I were to do a Reading on you, not knowing who you were and all in a matter of happenstance, I'd have to classify you as someone who believes themselves smarter, sexier and more important (right) than the rest of the world a.k.a. a wannabe Debutante who tends to keep all her real taste tucked away deeply in her mouth.

I know, that seems harsh and quite personal, but we are talking about doing a Reading on people and personality factors being what they are; your writing conveys the elements of someone that is agressive but not for the more "proper" reasoning of such things, rather as the result of needing to be better than due to inner-inferiority issues -- fear of failure and of course, being proven WRONG on things.

Your position on this and related issues is what is often classified as Contempt Prior to Investigation... in other words, you have your mind made up and unconsciously, your filter out any data that may challenge your view vs. how a "skeptic" would be willing to see possibilities where they may exist. Because of this very closed minded and narrowed opinion there is no way for you or those similar to you in attitude and personality, to actually see the broader picture. Not just when it comes to the Paranormal but life in general.

Now you claim you wanted to hear from the "experts" and though you've been given some valid feedback by a handful of individuals that actually MAKE A LIVING as Readers (or at least augment their income doing such) you've not allowed yourself to hear or see the full story. As I said previously, the only way to understand it all is to DO IT. To set aside your analytical bias and all the magic and cynic based "explanations" and actually learn at least one but preferably 3-5 legitimate systems, my recommendations being Numerology, Palmistry, Tarot, Somatotyping, and Asian Face Reading... of course you could toss in a touch of Astrology just to be aware of the parallels between it and other oracular systems. Brother Lewis would probably add to this list the I Ching while other associates of mine would recommend at least a remedial level of understanding in graphology.

Dozens of former skeptics have, on their own, discovered just how wrong their views were when they took it upon themselves to walk in the footsteps of the shut-eye Reader. Without all the psycho-babble and pseudo-explanations offered via the magic community, they found themselves making amazing hits as well as uncannily accurate connections with their clients. The thing is, many self-professed skeptics base all of their opinion based on what they've read vs. actual life experience and legitimate investigation -- they robotically regurgitate the very same explanations that were being used 30 years ago if not longer. Anything they can't explain away via some kind of analytical "research" is chalked up to coincidence or the self-fulfilling prophecy... the latter being somewhat ironic in that most cynics discount the effectiveness of affirmation and visualization work as it applies to the New Age theology and yet, the idea of self-fulfilling prophecy invokes that very same aspect of psychology... but then I just love the double-speak and dual reality tactics of such folks; it's exactly the same mode of course used by Religious Fanatics... but then even the good folks at the Genii forum have sustained the idea of "witch burning" when it comes to we low life members of the magic community (as well as the shut-eyes) that do any kind of Reading work and refuse to use disclaimers in their shows.

Again... if you were to come up to me, my not knowing who you are, I'd be compelled to gently nudge you away from your sense of expressed arrogance and towards some serious soul searching... what 12 Step groups would call an "Inventory", which includes getting honest about your negative elements and habits, sharing them with at least one other human being... something that's not as easy as it sounds in that most of us loathe the idea of getting honest with themselves. This however is the only way for us to learn and grow; clinging to staunch, narrowed points of view be it of a religious foundation or, as in your case, analytical inspiration, kills! It shuts us out of LIFE and slowly turns us into very bitter and lonely individuals. You are too young and yes, attractive, to allow such things to happen to you but it is a thing that's self-fulfilling -- you have a choice and the power to change your "fate" as it were.

As a Reader, and I'm certain Bro. Lewis will agree with me, part of my job is to show you options and ways of moving away from potentially negative scenarios in your life. Though a novice is rarely prepared to fulfill this side of the job fairly, the old salts that have done thousands of Readings over the years, learn how to be effective in this manner; even (in my case at least) knowing when to encourage clients towards mental health professionals... which I happen to do regularly as do most of the legitimate Readers I'm acquainted with.

Anywho... if your convictions are so deep and you "know" the answers, then why the trepidation? Why ask for surface insight when YOU have the ability to find out on your own via first hand experience? (and please don't come back with the cliche line of "I don't have to do Heroin to know it what it will do..." or some such. Nowhere near the same thing and it's a huge (as well as classic) cop-out used by the cynics of the world who haven't the brass to put their actions where their mouths are.)

Like you, if I want to learn about something I ask questions and I read. I get perspective from all sides of the issue so I can find a balanced point of view. Finding the mid-point on things is probably where you'll find what is closest to the truth than what we find by standing on the extremes of said line of thought... as Hermes implied long ago what is hot water to you may not be the same, by degree, to me or someone else... it's the same thing but perspective and "degree" of variance is what fine-tunes the definition.

You would be surprised what you'll find in this wonderful big world when you shelf your prejudices, take a deep breath and take the plung