talkmagic.co.uk

Problem is - a lot of christians get so used to the 'right answers' and the standard phrases - like 'you need to have faith' etc that to people with genuine questions it sounds really corny (no offense Tom - you're young and I see where you're coming from).

There are some very real questions, and a lot of the times the answers christians give are as a result of a lack of faith - in that they're scared to face their own doubts and so hide it with easy answers.

I believe it's a healthy thing to ask questions - even get to the point where you reject what you've been taught because it honestly doesn't make sense. The problem comes when that becomes the end of the journey.

I agree with the above post. I don't think 'its all a matter of Faith' is enough. When a Christian reaches a point where something makes no sense then they should wonder why that is. Is there mis-information in what I've been taught or believe? Merely brushing over the important questions in religion means that they will never be dealt with, and if mistakes have been made then they will never be unearted.

Why is it Religion is the only aspect of life that seems to be exempt from full questioning? If a scientific theory was presented (grass is made of fudge), and then a whole list of arguments against it were also presented (grass is clearly not made of fudge!) then a logical person would realise that the original scientific theory is not valid. The only difference between this and a Religious belief is that people have an emotional involvement in religion, and aren't half as willing to treat it with the objectivity it needs.

I believe it's a healthy thing to ask questions

i agree

Mark Smith wrote:Why is it Religion is the only aspect of life that seems to be exempt from full questioning? If a scientific theory was presented (grass is made of fudge), and then a whole list of arguments against it were also presented (grass is clearly not made of fudge!) then a logical person would realise that the original scientific theory is not valid. The only difference between this and a Religious belief is that people have an emotional involvement in religion, and aren't half as willing to treat it with the objectivity it needs.

I think its because most religions believe that these "unanswered questions" will be answered and made clear when we reach the end of our life "on earth"

MagicTom wrote:
I think its because most religions believe that these "unanswered questions" will be answered and made clear when we reach the end of our life "on earth"

However, I believe they can be answered now, just by believing there is no God (certainly not the Christian vision of God).

We have two options in life it seems:

Believe in God and as a result find it impossible to justify major issues in the world.

OR

Don't believe in God and find that they make sense and become answerable.

It seems clear to me which of the two approaches is more sensible. I don't like the idea of contriving to fit God into the world we can see around us.

So - how would you relate this to magic? (serious question - not just changing the subject)

I believe we all have our own ideas of the answers to these questions.

BUT there are SOO many people thinking of answers that we cannot prove who is right.

Science has apparently proved some of these and I'm not saying they are wrong.

Mark Smith wrote:We have two options in life it seems:

Believe in God and as a result find it impossible to justify major issues in the world.

OR

Don't believe in God and find that they make sense and become answerable.

It seems clear to me which of the two approaches is more sensible. I don't like the idea of contriving to fit God into the world we can see around us.

Don't you think there could be a third option?

from an atheist point of view i've found it hard to understand why any god would want to be worshipped in the first place by the very things he/she/it created in the first place, because to me it suggests power and/or fear ...and ego...

i've never wanted to look or find a god in times of trouble, i've relied on myself and my brain to cope...that and zingarro rosso (joking, well - kind of...)

physical imperfections/birth defects are explained genetically, scientifically...there's a why and a therefore involved...

maybe god was a gardener and we are but seeds cast into space, and that god maybe has no 'religious' feelings what so-ever...that i could handle actually...

morals would of evolved without religion i believe, and look at victorian england for an example - quite resoundingly religious - yet we'd happily poke little kids up chimneys and so on...strange, strange old world...

and what's this i read about the four dustman of the apocolypse or something?

taneous wrote:I believe it's a healthy thing to ask questions - even get to the point where you reject what you've been taught because it honestly doesn't make sense. The problem comes when that becomes the end of the journey.

This is a very interesting point, and one that directly affects me. As a result of the way I think, I have to constantly question what I believe now, always contemplating the idea that I may be wrong again. It puts me in a strange limbo, but I think I'm happier and more at ease with where I am now.

taneous wrote:So - how would you relate this to magic? (serious question - not just changing the subject)

Ok I'm confused. I cant remember how we got to this point now. hehe

It started as a thread about how being a christian affects your magic and now is more a theological debate.

MagicTom wrote:

taneous wrote:So - how would you relate this to magic? (serious question - not just changing the subject)

Ok I'm confused. I cant remember how we got to this point now. hehe

It started as a thread about how being a christian affects your magic and now is more a theological debate.

hmm - doesn't magic challenge peoples assumptions about reality - what they perceive?

taneous wrote:So - how would you relate this to magic? (serious question - not just changing the subject)

I can't see that magic and religion should really affect each other. In my mind they exist in completely seperate plains. Someone can be a Christian Magician happily, as we can see on this forum. It seems like asking how being Christian affects the way you write an essay, or take a shower.
I don't know how it could be any different to an athiest magician (unless they load their ACR with Christian messages). It's just trickery, we all know that - its no different than being a juggler. Its a display of skill, tricks and props that you have bought, it shouldn't have any affect on or be affected by one's religion (as far as I can see it ).

Mark, whilst I understand your point of view, I'd like to share something here...

You say that accepting God exists means there are a lot of unanswered questions and things that "shouldn't be".
I assume natural disasters, such as the tsunami would fall into this category.

So, I think you're quite right to ask "How could God let this happen" or "Where was your God in all this?"

Firstly. God doesn't cause tsunamis and the like. Tectonics plates collide together underwater which causes... oh. We all know how tsunamis happen, so i wont go into too much detail there.
My point is that God doesn't sit there and say "I know... if I push that there and this here, then we'll have a gloabl disaster on our hands! Aren't I good!"
Plates collide. Happens all the time.
It's the way the Earth was made, so in some way, it fits in.
God doesn't make stuff like that happen.

The other is the question of where is God.
Yes, it would be easy for God to put his hand up and stop the tsunami from ever reaching land. But it's stated in the Bible that our belief must come through faith rather than seeing miracles etc.
Sure, you can't see God, or touch him or smell him etc. But then again, you can't see the wind.
But you can't deny the existence of the wind.
Can't you "feel" God, in situations like this?

Where was God through the tsunami?
God was in the hearts of every person who chucked a quid in the collection bucket at their local. In the hearts of every person who did a sponsored event to raise money.
God was everywhere.
The whole world united... Man can't do that. He is incapable.
That's where God was.



And now, I apologise. As that may not be relevant, ad detracts from the original thread of Christian magicians etc.
Also, as one last aside, I don't see anything wrong with believing in a God who "might not" exist. I'd rather spend my life living under false beliefs than I'd be wrong when I died

hmm - doesn't magic challenge peoples assumptions about reality - what they perceive?

Now there's a question to get us thinking.

Its that word...MAGIC again.


I'll have to have a think....