talkmagic.co.uk

Yep, I think I follow that!

Everyone believes something they can't prove, it's the way we are built.

People are different and have different views and beliefs. It is how as an individual we interpretation those views and beliefs that makes us who we are. A couple of examples could be…

Steeling is wrong but Robin Hood stole from the rich to feed the poor.
(it does not matter if he is fiction or fact)

Lots of people say they are vegetarian and I know a few. One eats fish, the other two don’t, a different one has leather shoes and the other two feel this is wrong.

You could meet two people from two different parts of the country both stating they were the same faith but due to their location and influences from people in that area (e.g. different vicars in different churches) they could answer the same question with very different views. Neither would be right or wrong they would just be different. I say neither would be wrong because a view and an interpretation can never be wrong as it is personal.

Farlsborough wrote:Therefore, the only time you could be justified in getting in a huff about being tarred with the same brush as Adam and Eve is if you are perfect - I'm no psychic, but I'm pretty sure you're not!

Thats another thing that gets my goat about church.. SIN...
"YOU MUST REPENT FOR YOUR SINS"
Thats what I hear all the time.. why?
Are Church goers all nutters that go around sinning all day.. just so they can be forgiven?
Yes I'm sure I have sinned.. you can bet your life on that, but I don't do it as a rule, definatley not every week and yet there they all are asking for forgivness week in week out, Whats that all about?
And apparently every week they are forgiven anyway?... I don't see the logic there at all.. either you are are sinner and should quite rightly get whats coming to you.. or you are not.. either way you will be forgiven so why bother harping on about it so much?

My children are 7,9 and 13.. I guess the 13 year old has probably "sinned" a few times.. the 9 year old Mmmm maybe, who can tell? the 7 year old.. Come on hes 7 for Christs sake.. and an angel, he couldn't sin if he wanted too Yet there they are everytime I go to mass, having their hair blown off their faces by some nutter with a collar Screaming about sin...

No wonder my Kids are so well behaved most of the time

Ok rant over

I went to a buddhist temple in Vietnam. They had this picture on the wall depicting hell and all the horrible things that happen to you depending on your sins.
I asked one of the monks what it was about as I was under the impression that there was no concept of hell in buddhism. He said there wasn't - but hopefully it encouraged people to live a good life
My kids are 3 and 6. I have to treat each of them differently when it comes to discipline. One day they'll get to a point where they won't need to have me tell them what they can and can't do - they'll be grown up.

The thing is there are some people get a kick out of being 'parental', and there are others who still feel a need to be parented - maybe this is where some of the problem lies ??

Are Church goers all nutters that go around sinning all day.. just so they can be forgiven?

Certianly not.

We all do things wrong as you said. And its those things we want to be forgiven for.

We dont go round doing bad stuff for the sake of being forgiven!

Wukfit!
Sin - a lot of non-Christians have the same response, and I think it's because they have been misled in terms of what "sin" is.

It does not mean some premeditated/malicious/violent/carnal wrong doing! When you say "I don't do it as a rule, definitely not every week" ( ) this implies that to you, "sin" is stealing and murdering etc.

Well, they are "sins" I suppose, but we need to get away from this "seven deadly sins" mentality - ie. there are a big list of sins in a book somewhere that we need to not do, and as long as we don't do them often, we're ok.

Sin is going against God, plain and simple. This is what the fruit in the garden of eden is all about - it wasn't about some "naughty apple" - the temptation was, "do this and you will be like God". The tree was called "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", but they obviously already "knew" what was right and wrong - God had told them - what it's actually saying is "the knowledge to determine/decide what's right and wrong" - in the same way that God does, ie; make your own right and wrong!
So you may not have bumped off any old ladies in your car this week, but despite how well you think you've done, you have failed to live up to perfection, which is God's standard - you have acted as though you are the highest authority over you. And I hate to tell you this but so have your children! So have I.

So no, church folk aren't nutters who go around committing horrific, evil deeds all the time - but they are just as guilty as anyone else of pushing God out of their lives, and making themselves king of the roost as it were. That's what sin is.


As a tag-on; you mentioned you don't believe in an absolute code... in which case, why should anyone else agree with you? What's wrong with me stealing stuff from your house and just saying, "I decide for myself what's right and wrong, and I see nothing wrong with stealing." If society built itself on the principle that "as long as you do what's right by yourself", how can we put people in prison - surely if they are happy enough with what they've done, who are we to impose "our" moral standards on them? Isn't that as bad as any Christian who tries to tell you that there *is* an absolute moral code?

Wukfit wrote:

Macbeth wrote:Hi, Haven't posted here for a while, but I am a Christian Magician and yes it affects the way I perform.

How?... really, I would love to know how being a Christian (or any other religion) would make any difference to a performance of magic.

Sorry about the delay in replying. My being a Christian means that I will never perform with an "aren't I cool" attitude, I will always treat any participants with respect, I will not swear, or claim to have psychic powers. I personally love bizzare/graveside magic. But would not perform them on an unsuspecting audience. I also don't perform effects that use danger like Smash & Stab & Needle Thru arm as I personally know children try and copy what I do.

That is how my being a Christian affects my performance.

Farlsborough wrote:Wukfit!
Sin - a lot of non-Christians have the same response, and I think it's because they have been misled in terms of what "sin" is.

It does not mean some premeditated/malicious/violent/carnal wrong doing! When you say "I don't do it as a rule, definitely not every week" ( ) this implies that to you, "sin" is stealing and murdering etc.

Well, they are "sins" I suppose, but we need to get away from this "seven deadly sins" mentality - ie. there are a big list of sins in a book somewhere that we need to not do, and as long as we don't do them often, we're ok.

Sin is going against God, plain and simple. This is what the fruit in the garden of eden is all about - it wasn't about some "naughty apple" - the temptation was, "do this and you will be like God". The tree was called "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil", but they obviously already "knew" what was right and wrong - God had told them - what it's actually saying is "the knowledge to determine/decide what's right and wrong" - in the same way that God does, ie; make your own right and wrong!
So you may not have bumped off any old ladies in your car this week, but despite how well you think you've done, you have failed to live up to perfection, which is God's standard - you have acted as though you are the highest authority over you. And I hate to tell you this but so have your children! So have I.

So no, church folk aren't nutters who go around committing horrific, evil deeds all the time - but they are just as guilty as anyone else of pushing God out of their lives, and making themselves king of the roost as it were. That's what sin is.


As a tag-on; you mentioned you don't believe in an absolute code... in which case, why should anyone else agree with you? What's wrong with me stealing stuff from your house and just saying, "I decide for myself what's right and wrong, and I see nothing wrong with stealing." If society built itself on the principle that "as long as you do what's right by yourself", how can we put people in prison - surely if they are happy enough with what they've done, who are we to impose "our" moral standards on them? Isn't that as bad as any Christian who tries to tell you that there *is* an absolute moral code?

Ok first off I'm not asking for anyone to agree with me, if you don't thats fine, I'm discussing not preaching. The reason I'm discussing is I like to hear other peoples views on things thats why theres so many ? in my posts.

My personal definition of sin is knowingly causing pain or discomfort whether that be physical or mental to any living thing. So I guess you could say I am sinning now ... sorry am I forgiven?

As for the absolute code bit, like I've said before I feel I am a civilised person "civil" being the operative word.

And thankyou for explaining your perception of sin.. It helps make sense of what I see at mass.

Guilt is a great weapon huh?

MacBeth, are those things you feel that you would not do if you weren't Christian?

Certainly I can see how performing some styles of magic could be in conflict with certain beliefs but it seems unlikely to me that most people would be more polite if they are religious, surely that is more to do with personality? I know I have met many rude Christians and Atheists and equally as many of each who are polite.

As for claiming psychic powers, this is an area where I can see the potential conflict with religious beliefs and understand why you wouldn't do it as a result of your Christianity. I coose not to because most of the people I perform to know me, so I wouldn't really get away with it as a presentational angle since they know my opinions on the subject!

i thank God that I'm an (occasionally rude) atheist....

...it means i can tell whatever story i like, and use whatever props i like...only my own beliefs (or acted beliefs) would invest those items with 'powers'....

thats not me being pious, just exploring the freedoms my beliefs allow me...

im quite moral, i know the difference between right and wrong without any fear of rebuke from whatever God takes in your beliefs...i'd love there to be a good, righteous God, but i've not seen much that supports that in my opinion...maybe yours, but not mine...

perhaps we humanize God? the same way some people treat their dogs and cats as babies...maybe we shouldnt think "ahh, but if i was God, Hitler would of been salt before he had the chance to do anything...."

...maybe we should just do what we believe to be intrinsically right, for ourselves, and for the majority of the world, regardless of beliefs...

yet at the same time, how many times do we do things that are to our detriment, yet for the good of others...only to see these others do nothing? selfless acts can cause you no end of suffering...yet no one is actually to blame are they...

you chose to do something, you live with the consequences...

would anyone who believes in a God say that violence can on occasion be a good thing - especially if it ends more suffering? an eye for an eye, yet thou shall not kill...

i find religion on the whole, full of double-standards; or rather in my version of the world i find religion full of double-standards...

It's an interesting one Nick. I don't think Steve is saying he wouldn't be polite if it weren't for his faith but the Bible teaches we should respect each other and treat them as equals so as a result of Christianity they are values to be thought of highly. There are rude Christians, certainly, but they shouldn't be, atheists do not HAVE to be polite not everyone has natural good moral code which you obviously do but Christian beliefs include morals.

Hope that makes sense.

Pitto wrote: the Bible teaches we should respect each other and treat them as equals

So did my parents, and as a parent so do I to my kids.. you don't need a bible or any other book to learn how to treat people with respect, you just do it.. hopefully.

Another observation... you know those "Jesus loves me" stickers you see on the back of cars?

How come the cars are always old and falling apart, surely if Jesus loved them that much he'd buy them a nice car?

Wukfit wrote:Another observation... you know those "Jesus loves me" stickers you see on the back of cars?

How come the cars are always old and falling apart, surely if Jesus loved them that much he'd buy them a nice car?

Ah, come on, mate. It's who's in the car with them that matters, not what you think they should be driving.

"So did my parents, and as a parent so do I to my kids.. you don't need a bible or any other book to learn how to treat people with respect, you just do it.. hopefully. "

It actually says in the Bible that God designed humans that way - but not everyone does.

Pitto wrote:I don't think Steve is saying he wouldn't be polite if it weren't for his faith but the Bible teaches we should respect each other and treat them as equals so as a result of Christianity they are values to be thought of highly.

I know, I was just having a little dig!

It is one of those sets of things that I have seen many people attribute to their religion but I feel it is far more closely linked to simply being a nice person; if you need the threat of eternal damnation to make you seem to be a nice person then there may be something going wrong