talkmagic.co.uk

jdmagic357 wrote:Why do we here on this board and others assume that anyone
wanting to be a magician can be one? It seems like just in
our art, we foster such a ludicrous idea. If we were
instead dancers or singers, we would quickly filter out those
without talent

1) Because of something reminiscent of "... life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" ?

2) Because otherwise many talented professional magicians like yourself maybe would loose a part of their income not selling DVDs, books and gimmicks to us lot?

3) Because you are kind and encouraging, and it makes you a better person?

4) Because ultimately, whether you choose to support it or not, people will do what they want regardless of your pedantic opinion on the way their should spend their time.

[quote="TonyB"]People with no aptitude or talent are welcome to come and try anything. Its part of the fun of life.

I love cooking. I can prepare a variety of tasty meals. But that doesn't entitle me to call myself a chef.[/quote]

My point exactly. Nothing is wrong with one wanting, trying, attempting anything. One might even be some what successful? But when we pretend that anybody can do something that takes great skill, we need to be more realistic. Imo.

Love that Teller quote.

As for the original question, I see no way to figure out who has the apptitude to do magic before actually teaching them a few secrets, letting them experiment on their own (and perhaps on their poor friends) for a few months, get them up on stage and let the young birdie take flight...
Or crash to the ground.

My belief? If they crash to the ground and decide to call it quits, then they won't be good magicians.
But if they make mistakes, fall down, despair - then pick themselves up, take a look at what they've done and try to figure out how to become better at the craft - that's the point where they really step up on the road to being a magician (or performer of any kind).

So in short: let them learn, let them try. Help them, encourage them. Those who will fail, will. Nothing we can do about it. But why not give help when we can?

People who study magic but don't perform shouldn't be given the time of day in my opinion as at the end of the day, it's a performance art. I kind of agree with what you are originally saying, there are people who have been doing this for years and still well... not so good. We should be honest with these people though, thankfully I never went to any clubs when starting out and now still don't as my friends were harsh but fair, and told me how c*** (not the best) certain things were.

People have to persist though in order to see if they are good, look at Eddie Izzard. So it'sreally a double edged sword...

phillipnorthfield wrote:People who study magic but don't perform shouldn't be given the time of day in my opinion as at the end of the day, it's a performance art.

What a ridiculous statement! I guess that also includes every person who has taught themselves a guitar chord - or who has taken a Salsa class - or trains for fitness through martial arts?


I didn't want to raise this point, but most of this thread has only proven what an elitist attitude there is within the magic community. Sure, you'll find it to a degree within most interest groups - but none more than between magicians.

In my opinion.
G

I bet you this guy has run into plenty of people with that mentality over the years. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crueRHCwRzw

phillipnorthfield wrote:People who study magic but don't perform shouldn't be given the time of day in my opinion as at the end of the day, it's a performance art.

I think that's a bit harsh. I agree that it's a performance art, and ultimately doesn't mean much without performing it to people. I spent a good while learning magic without really performing it at all. While it might not be the art of magic at its fullest, I really enjoyed learning and practicing sleights. Especially card stuff, I still enjoy just sitting and playing with difficult stuff.

It totally changes when you start performing to real people (presentation can really only be learned by doing it, and you can get away with a lot more than you'd think), but if someone wants to sit on their own and play with cards then good for them.

phillipnorthfield wrote:People who study magic but don't perform shouldn't be given the time of day in my opinion as at the end of the day, it's a performance art.

You're so right. There is no room in the magic world for the likes of John Gaughan or Jim Steinmeyer.

That was sarcasm btw.

I should really clarify what I meant before I get lynched here. I meant their opinions on actually doing it for real shouldn't be taken as being accurate. Like you said, you learn by doing, and by doing a lot.

Clearly if they choose to learn something designed to be performed and not perform it that is up to them, personally I think it's a bit of a waste of time but each to his own.

The amount of people that can play an instrument is huge but the number of professionals who play for real is of course much lower, if they are happy doing it then good for them but it would be stupid to tell them that they will be an amazing pop star, instead they should be told they could be an amazing pop star, if they put the work in.

I disagree with the elitist attitude thing, like the OP said, if we were rubbish actors we'd get told so and move on. It's not about destroying peoples dreams or hopes or whatever it's just the fact's of life. If they really want to do it then they'll try harder and become good at what they do.

If it wasn't for those who really can't do magic, most of the people on this board would not be on this board. And that has nothing to do with your ability. I am not implying in anyway who and who does not have the ability to be a magician.

I am however speaking in economic terms. It is those who 'cannot do' who drive this business. And make no mistake it is a business. The creators of your latest packet trick, your fancy cups and balls and everything else make money creating. If only those that can actually qualify as a magician were able to practice the art, there would be very few new items on the market ever!

Perhaps that is a good thing, I can see how it is a good thing, but alas I am not one to judge because I can also see how that is a bad thing.

Lets face it, go buy a book or buy a dvd that is produced by or about or features your favourite magician. There is a ton of stuff that he/she is willing to teach budding magicians or hobbiests. Then go watch the same magician in actual performance. Very little of what is in the book is in his/her working repatoire, or ever was.

Money a plenty is too be made in the lecture circuit at magic conventions. Many magicians make a great living just in lectures, most of what is taught will never see the light of day. The lecturer gets to do what he/she loves, magic in front of people. Not only do they get paid to do it, they then turn around and make a bundle off the sales. And as an added bonus all that hard work that went into making all the slight of hand hidden that a magician never gets to show, at a lecture they get to show it. The magicians they are lecturing too, be it working pro's or ametures or arm chair magicians get exactly what they want. Depending on the level of magic they get to see a great show, buy all the latest 'stuff' or for the working pro, most often get too spend time with an old friend or have dinner with another worker. Its a win/win situation. No complaints.

Most working pro's don't buy magic, they have thier act and they stick with it. Chidrens entertainers buy the stuff that is consumable, mouth coils is a perfect example. Only the hobbiest or arm chair magician keep buying, keep looking for that perfect trick or string of tricks. And make no mistake, magic dealers love you for it.

Lastly if you are still reading. You don't have to be a magician to enjoy performing a magic trick. You don't have to be a magician to entertain people with a svengali deck, or a stripper deck or dimes to nickles. And there is nothing wrong with that.

What hurts other magicians is the guy who can't perform yet goes out and gets shows and gets paid and is lousy. That hurts.

I was about to enact Godwin's law there before the clarification post by Phillip, lol.

Can I just say that when it comes to singers, you don't need to be any good to be a chart success any more. I like looking at footage of bands from the 70's, where they were pig ugly but talented. Then you get the 80's where only the good looking ones who were talented were selected, now you just need to be good looking and not have any talent whatsoever. Isn't that right, Girls Aloud?

I'm bitter because I never made it in a band, okay?

Now, back on topic.

Actually, these days you don't need either...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CD2LRROpph0

I hear that next year they are planning on replacing Steven Tyler as a judge on American Idol, with professor Steven Hawking.